Candi Sukuh

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2016, 11:59 PM

Here is a link to four pages of photographs of Candi Sukuh in Central Jawa.

Keris people know Candi Sukuh for its stele depicting a forge, but Candi Sukuh is much more than that. It is one of the holiest places in Jawa and is closely connected to the cycle of life, death and rebirth, and of course to fertility.

If you are offended by Hindu-Javanese religious mores I suggest you do not access this page.

http://kerisattosanaji.com/CANDISUKUHPHOTOSPAGE1.html

Rick · 30th January 2016, 01:47 AM

Thank you Alan; I will never get there in person so this is much appreciated.
Lots to contemplate in the pictures you have put up.

David · 30th January 2016, 04:23 AM

Thanks Alan. As Leif pointed out on another thread, you are, as always, an amazing resource.

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2016, 08:30 PM

Thanks gentlemen.

Rick · 31st January 2016, 11:40 PM

Question, Alan:
About the layout of the grounds and locations of the works themselves; when were they arranged?

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2016, 12:41 AM

We only have the one date Rick and that is in the form of a chronogram --- pictorial symbols for numbers --- the symbols that can be understood as: "gapura buta abara wong" this translates to the number 9531 which has to be read backwards to give the date of 1357 which is a Saka date, this is 1437CE.

The symbols are understood in terms of the Candra Sangkala, which provides the number relevant to the figure.

In English the symbols mean to "giant gate eat human" --- other translations are possible, but they all have the same sense.

So we can take the date of establishment at about 1437.

It seems that the place was known as a holy place before the temple was built, as there is a standing stone there that predates the temple.

Raffles visited when he was in Jogja and he found it to be in a mess.

I visited for the first time in either the late 1960's or early 1970's and it was in a bit of a mess then too, over the years it has been gradually tidied up. I don't know if the position that all the minor carvings are in now is where they were found or if they have been moved around.

The physical entry to Sukuh is in fact a big gate, so a person going into the Sukuh area is "eaten" by the gate, but the symbols carved in relief on the gateway say what is happening. Its a double meaning:- the physical entry equates to the date of establishment.

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2016, 07:27 AM

Very interesting! Thank you a lot!

rasdan · 1st February 2016, 11:08 AM

Thank you very much for the photos Alan. I really appreciate it.

You mentioned a standing stone that predates the candi. Is it the lingga carving with the keris image on it?

Bjorn · 1st February 2016, 11:58 AM

I've been wanting to learn more about the Candra Sangkala but haven't come across a good source. Can anyone recommend a good publication?

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2016, 08:10 PM

Rasdan:- no, it is a plain lingga, not one of the highly carved works

Yuuzan;- the most accessible source for the Candra Sangkala is Raffles "History of Java"

Bjorn · 2nd February 2016, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Rasdan:- no, it is a plain lingga, not one of the highly carved works

Yuuzan;- the most accessible source for the Candra Sangkala is Raffles "History of Java"

Thank you, Alan.

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2016, 09:18 PM

In post #6 I have given the reading of the chronogram for 9531 as :-

gapura buta abara wong

this is incorrect, a product of my rather messy notes, it should be:-

gapura buta aban wong

sorry for the sloppy work.

Bjorn · 5th February 2016, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In post #6 I have given the reading of the chronogram for 9531 as :-

gapura buta abara wong

this is incorrect, a product of my rather messy notes, it should be:-

gapura buta aban wong

sorry for the sloppy work.

Alan, could the Javanese phrase gapura buta aban wong be rendered into Bahasa as gapura raksasa makan orang-orang?

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2016, 12:06 PM

Yes, but not "orang-orang", just one person, so "orang".

Personally I'd prefer "manusia" rather than "orang".

Bear this in mind:-

we're dealing with a translation of a chronogram, Martha Muusses read it as "gapura buta aban wong", W.F. Stutterheim read it with the same meaning but used "raksasa makan orang", then K.C. Crucq again gave it the same meaning but used "gapura buta mangan wong"

I don't know where the word "aban" came from, because it is not found in Old Javanese, nor Modern Javanese. Maybe a Javanese dialect of the time? I don't know. I've asked numerous native speakers of Javanese and either they did not know, or went of on a tangent of word analysis that led nowhere. One person I asked thought it was really "abara", or "ngabara", but "abara" is not a word either as far as I can see. In any case, whatever the word is, it needs to have a numerical equivalent of the number 3; in the Candra Sangkala there are words that have a similar spoken sound to "abara":- "anala", "dahana", in fact most of the words that have a numeric value of 3 are words related to fire, none relate to eating or swallowing.

The meaning given depends upon the reading of the chronogram, and it depends upon the identification of the object held in the giant's hand as a human being. I'm not qualified to argue with Martha Muusses or W.F. Stutterheim, but I'd need a real good dose of imagination to see a human being in that giant's hand.

The giant has something in his hand that he might intend to eat. Maybe. But anyway, the Greats Spake, and nobody has yet seen fit to argue with them, it sure won't be me --- but I'd like to see a bright young Phd with the appropriate academic background take another crack at some of these chronograms that we find at Candi Sukuh.

The chronogram we're talking about is the one everybody knows and quotes as the date fixer, maybe its 100%, maybe not, but all the other chronograms have been read to place Sukuh within a window of time that is more or less in agreement with the chronogram that gets consistently quoted.

There's another thing too:- what does the date indicate? when Sukuh was finished? when it was made holy? when it was begun? what the date really means is an educated guess at best.

There has not been an enormous amount of academic work done on Sukuh, and it seems that there is more than a little variation in opinion. A thesis presented by Jo Grimmond, an Australian, takes a fresh look at what Sukuh might really have been about. It does seem a little imaginative, but it deserves consideration. Then somebody else --- I forget who --- wants to paint Sukuh as a political statement.

Anyway, Candi Sukuh is a truly wonderful and sacred place. Nobody with a soul could visit there are fail to be moved.

29th January 2016, 11:59 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Candi Sukuh Here is a link to four pages of photographs of Candi Sukuh in Central Jawa. Keris people know Candi Sukuh for its stele depicting a forge, but Candi Sukuh is much more than that. It is one of the holiest places in Jawa and is closely connected to the cycle of life, death and rebirth, and of course to fertility. If you are offended by Hindu-Javanese religious mores I suggest you do not access this page. http://kerisattosanaji.com/CANDISUKUHPHOTOSPAGE1.html

4th February 2016, 09:18 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	correction In post #6 I have given the reading of the chronogram for 9531 as :- gapura buta abara wong this is incorrect, a product of my rather messy notes, it should be:- gapura buta aban wong sorry for the sloppy work.

30th January 2016, 01:47 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Thank you Alan; I will never get there in person so this is much appreciated. Lots to contemplate in the pictures you have put up.

30th January 2016, 04:23 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Thanks Alan. As Leif pointed out on another thread, you are, as always, an amazing resource.

30th January 2016, 08:30 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Thanks gentlemen.

31st January 2016, 11:40 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Question, Alan: About the layout of the grounds and locations of the works themselves; when were they arranged?

1st February 2016, 12:41 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	We only have the one date Rick and that is in the form of a chronogram --- pictorial symbols for numbers --- the symbols that can be understood as: "gapura buta abara wong" this translates to the number 9531 which has to be read backwards to give the date of 1357 which is a Saka date, this is 1437CE. The symbols are understood in terms of the Candra Sangkala, which provides the number relevant to the figure. In English the symbols mean to "giant gate eat human" --- other translations are possible, but they all have the same sense. So we can take the date of establishment at about 1437. It seems that the place was known as a holy place before the temple was built, as there is a standing stone there that predates the temple. Raffles visited when he was in Jogja and he found it to be in a mess. I visited for the first time in either the late 1960's or early 1970's and it was in a bit of a mess then too, over the years it has been gradually tidied up. I don't know if the position that all the minor carvings are in now is where they were found or if they have been moved around. The physical entry to Sukuh is in fact a big gate, so a person going into the Sukuh area is "eaten" by the gate, but the symbols carved in relief on the gateway say what is happening. Its a double meaning:- the physical entry equates to the date of establishment.

1st February 2016, 07:27 AM	#7
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Very interesting! Thank you a lot!

1st February 2016, 11:08 AM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thank you very much for the photos Alan. I really appreciate it. You mentioned a standing stone that predates the candi. Is it the lingga carving with the keris image on it?

1st February 2016, 11:58 AM	#9
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	I've been wanting to learn more about the Candra Sangkala but haven't come across a good source. Can anyone recommend a good publication?

1st February 2016, 08:10 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Rasdan:- no, it is a plain lingga, not one of the highly carved works Yuuzan;- the most accessible source for the Candra Sangkala is Raffles "History of Java"

5th February 2016, 12:06 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	Yes, but not "orang-orang", just one person, so "orang". Personally I'd prefer "manusia" rather than "orang". Bear this in mind:- we're dealing with a translation of a chronogram, Martha Muusses read it as "gapura buta aban wong", W.F. Stutterheim read it with the same meaning but used "raksasa makan orang", then K.C. Crucq again gave it the same meaning but used "gapura buta mangan wong" I don't know where the word "aban" came from, because it is not found in Old Javanese, nor Modern Javanese. Maybe a Javanese dialect of the time? I don't know. I've asked numerous native speakers of Javanese and either they did not know, or went of on a tangent of word analysis that led nowhere. One person I asked thought it was really "abara", or "ngabara", but "abara" is not a word either as far as I can see. In any case, whatever the word is, it needs to have a numerical equivalent of the number 3; in the Candra Sangkala there are words that have a similar spoken sound to "abara":- "anala", "dahana", in fact most of the words that have a numeric value of 3 are words related to fire, none relate to eating or swallowing. The meaning given depends upon the reading of the chronogram, and it depends upon the identification of the object held in the giant's hand as a human being. I'm not qualified to argue with Martha Muusses or W.F. Stutterheim, but I'd need a real good dose of imagination to see a human being in that giant's hand. The giant has something in his hand that he might intend to eat. Maybe. But anyway, the Greats Spake, and nobody has yet seen fit to argue with them, it sure won't be me --- but I'd like to see a bright young Phd with the appropriate academic background take another crack at some of these chronograms that we find at Candi Sukuh. The chronogram we're talking about is the one everybody knows and quotes as the date fixer, maybe its 100%, maybe not, but all the other chronograms have been read to place Sukuh within a window of time that is more or less in agreement with the chronogram that gets consistently quoted. There's another thing too:- what does the date indicate? when Sukuh was finished? when it was made holy? when it was begun? what the date really means is an educated guess at best. There has not been an enormous amount of academic work done on Sukuh, and it seems that there is more than a little variation in opinion. A thesis presented by Jo Grimmond, an Australian, takes a fresh look at what Sukuh might really have been about. It does seem a little imaginative, but it deserves consideration. Then somebody else --- I forget who --- wants to paint Sukuh as a political statement. Anyway, Candi Sukuh is a truly wonderful and sacred place. Nobody with a soul could visit there are fail to be moved.