Origins of Gorda/Gurda

[ariel]

Anyone into Caucasian weapons knows what I mean: shashkas with the "eyelashes" mark were called Gorda ( or, apparently in Russian pronounciation, Gurda) and were viewed as the cream of the crop. The origins of this word remain murky.
During the recent long and boring X-Mas/New Year break, I read Askhabov's book "Chechen Weapons" " ( among others).
He attributes the word Gorda/Gurda to either aul (village) Gordali, or to a semimythical master Gordali. In between, there are the usual legends about one Chechen killing another while screaming " Gur Da!' ( i.e. "I'll show you!"), quotations from Lermontov and Tolstoi, crazy derivations like " owner of a trap", "master of power " etc.
None of this is convincing.
The reasons:
1.The Gorda/Gurda blades all ( by definition) have the "eyelash" mark. Thus, their origin must be somehow connected with Europe.
2. The earliest the word Gorda or its derivative appear in Chechen vocabulary is 17th/early 18th century. Thus, we have a time frame.
3. There are no Gorda Kindjals. All of them are shashkas.


I suggest that the true origin of Gorda/Gurda is Hungarian word "Kard" i.e. simply "sword".

European blades of 17-18th centuries were immensely popular all around the Caucasus, Hungarian especially. A good chunk of them were made not in Hungary, but in Germany and N.Italy. This may explain the Genoese eyelashes. In Poland, whose blades were also widely used and highly respected in the Caucasus, the Hungarian Kord was called Korda.
The phonetics, the timing and the location fit.
What I think happened, the merchants brought Hungarian/Polish blades and called them by their real name: Korda or Kard. Subsequent importation of mass-produced Genoese and German blades required marketing tricks. These were just called by the known name. And the idea stuck.
No different from many manufacturers of soft drinks calling their brown goo " cola". Or,we "xerox" documents, even though the actual machine might be Fuji or something else.


Any counter-arguments?

[Jim McDougall]

Very interesting theory Ariel, well thought out.
It does seem that the 'eyelash' or 'sickle' markings do appear consistantly in some interpretation on these blades in the Caucusus, and I think Askhabov's book on Chechen weapons addresses this quite well.
It seems that some time ago it was suggested to me that the term 'gurda' interpreted loosely to mean 'good blade', which I think is in line with what you describe, but I'm unclear on the etymology. I think that the reference to the eyelash marks associated with the quality inference. I agree that the rather romanticized and fanciful suggestions remain just that.

As you note, many of the blades that turn up on shashkas were at some earlier point, East European, whether Polish or Hungarian, and I was not aware of the term 'korda', which seems to be a plausible association. It seems also interesting that the term 'gurda' is applied to shashka's, and not to other weapons, further suggesting reference to the 'quality' of these sword blades.

I also wonder more on the counterpart blades that occur concurrently on shashkas with the equally significant 'running wolf' mark of Passau/Solingen/Styria and as Askhabov describes as 'ters maymal'. This again seems applied in the same sense, and it would be interesting to know more on that term as well.

[TVV]

Askhabov's teories are interesting and quite entertaining, but I am afraid that just like Ariel I am somewhat sceptic. From blessed shield to screaming monkey, I am not sure anyone knows what the true meaning of ters maymal was.

[Marc]

To be sincere, for my experience, Ariel's hypothesis holds far more water than any of the others. First of all, it's well-formulated, uses the data available and works with factors known to have had similar influences in other fields (names given to import products based in those they had in their place of origin. It happens even today). Theories regarding "names" or "marks" on weapons have an undeniable tendency to fall in the direction of what any bazaar seller would instantly recognize as "the coolness factor". You know how this goes, any notch on the handle of a Colt Army must be a man gone down, never a sign of mistreatment. I also tend to be quite sceptic about these stories, and although some of them are true, these tend to be not only somewhat obvious but normally they're also verifiable via some independent sources.

Also, the kind of explanation Ariel's putting forth is also mirrored in other similar cases, like the Canary Islands knife "naife" or the Filipino "punal".

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly right Marc! The lore of weapons is rich with vernacular terms that have become associated with particular weapon forms, and it often becomes difficult to separate them even when facts are discovered that contradict the established use.
The nim'cha term applied to full length swords, the term claymore used to describe Scottish basket hilts, the term katar used to describe what is properly termed jemadhar, etc.etc. Most are typically transliteration and semantics, and in many cases writers and adventurers embellished thier work with colorful stories about the weapons.
The note on the notches on the handles of guns is coincidentally something I had just noted on the thread on the marking of weapons, and of course in reality, gunfighters did not place notches on their gun grips.

As has been noted, the lore is great for entertainment, but for our purposes often confounding.

All very best regards,
Jim

[S.Al-Anizi]

Hi All!

Interesting topic. Strange thing is that this word has also been passed to Arabic, specifically the Nejdi dialect, in which it is used to name a straight bladed sword, Gurda.

[ariel]

That's interesting!
original Arabian sword were straight, as everybody knows.
So, here are my questions:
- Is this name recent ? How old?
-does Gurda refer to a specific straight sword or to the class in general?
- Any other characteristics ( markings?) of Gurda?
-Any connection with European blades?

[ariel]

Yet another tantalizing hint: Elgood mentions Burton's note of Western Arabian swords with European blades called Majar ( Hungarian).

[Kiziria]

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

[ariel]

Another Forum is having a thread initiated by a Caucasian buff ( ); the gist is that the origin of Caucasian blades locally dubbed " David Peruli" ( or, as some sources call it, "davitperuli") both sounding rather "Georgian", is in fact a mispronounciation of David Ferrara, an Italian master whose blades were popular in the area in the 17-18th centuries.
Another example of Korda/Gorda?

[Montino Bourbon]

furnish a link to the other forum, please? is that allowed?

[ariel]

Moderators,
Am I allowed to furnish a link to other forum?

[Rick]

Ariel , we have a new member with comments (see post #9) .

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Kiziria

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

Welcome to the forums Kiziria .

[ariel]

As usual, I was the most absentminded one...
Vakhtang, Gamarjoba and welcome to the Forum!
I thought your insight into "David Peruli" was very clever.
Just like the European/Persian swords came to the Caucasus, the Caucasian ones went to the entire Middle East. Somebody mentioned that a good proportion of the "Persian" blades in the Louvre are , in fact, Caucasian "forgeries". I guess the same might be true about Teheran National Museum as well

[Jim McDougall]

This was an interesting discussion, and its theme was essentially one of the purposes of the 'early trademarks thread'. While that thread seems to have pretty much run its course, and still stands holding important data for further research, I wanted to add some information I have just discovered , and wanted to place it on this thread.

Regardless of the local term applied, or the colloquial terms used by collectors, these opposed crescent or semi circles and thier origin remain somewhat a mystery. It is generally held that the marking, typically with lines or 'teeth' added, derives from early markings denoting quality on the blades of Genoa. The marks were duplicated in other regions and centers of blade makers with the quality connotation carried forward.

It is unclear whether the toothed half circles ever were those of a particular maker, and I am inclined to believe that they were likely guild marks that became used in various centers in Italy. With the blades exported to other trade centers, it is likely they were duplicated by local makers to suggest blade quality, much as this was done by native makers in North Africa, India and of course, the Caucusus.

In a documentary I was just viewing, there was mention of early Christian symbolism, and the fish becoming a symbol for Jesus. Apparantly early Christians, using stylized symbolism when meeting, would draw a line in the earth of a semi circle. The other, in response if himself a Christian, would also draw a semicircle with his foot, superimposed on the other, the two depicting a stylized fish.
I think that eventually these semi circles became important in symbolism disassociated with that particular meaning in degree, as disjoined elements, and eventually in Italy became trademarks for a guild of bladesmiths. It would be interesting if this could be substantiated, but does seem a plausible theory for the beginnings of the opposed semicircles. I believe that the paired crescent moons reflected these 'eyelash' or 'sickle marks' in their dual representation. Naturally duality is also very important in symbolism.

The anchor is also mentioned as an early Christian symbol, and as such, is discussed on the forementioned thread.

The eyelash or sickle marks became important in a number of blade centers, and commonly used in Styria, India, North Africa and the Caucusus with the purpose of suggesting blade quality. This just seemed interesting in looking at the possible beginnings of the marks.

Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

The oldest variety of Gorda was called Gorda Assel.
Any brilliant ideas what "Assel" may mean, i.e. what European ( Italian, Styrian etc) word, name or locality could be transmogrified to " Assel"?

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting. Seems like a word from German dialects, but I would defer to the linguists and etymology experts. Perhaps more information on the source of data this earliest form of 'gurda' might add some context.
I would be inclined to think that 'assel' might be something colloquial from Styria, Passau or of course Solingen.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Another Forum is having a thread initiated by a Caucasian buff ( ); the gist is that the origin of Caucasian blades locally dubbed " David Peruli" ( or, as some sources call it, "davitperuli") both sounding rather "Georgian", is in fact a mispronounciation of David Ferrara, an Italian master whose blades were popular in the area in the 17-18th centuries.
Another example of Korda/Gorda?

This was interesting, and it adds further mystery to the long standing arms conundrum of 'Andrea Ferrara'.
Ariel noted in his query concerning 'gurda', "was it a 'class' of sword?", which has proven also to be key in the Andrea Ferrara situation.

Reviewing notes as well as the outstanding reference on Italian edged weapons, "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (L.Boccia & E.Coelho, Milan, 1975), it seems, as mentioned often, that there is considerable doubt that any blademaker named Andrea Ferrara ever actually existed. Even blades with this marking presented in the authoritative reference by Boccia & Coelho are referenced with question marks.
It seems that listings of nearly all significant Italian blademakers and the comprehensive records kept by the guilds have enabled arms historians to establish actual addresses and locations of virtually all of these makers. That is not the case with the Ferrara's, where no such locations have been found. It is also interesting that the 'name' inscribed in the blades, even for one in Boccia & Coelho (op.cit. p.384 #481) the name is above and below, with each encapsulated at either end, contrary to the continuum of name and surname.

Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs, in his remarkable article "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (J.A.A.S. Vol.V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92), also brings attention to the 'Ferrara' dilemma. He notes personal correspondence from Sir James Mann in 1958 stating "...I have never seen any sword which could creditably be attributed to Andrea dei Ferari of Belluno". Mann continues by noting, "...the Baron de Cosson many years ago pointed out that the name Andrea Ferrara is used on blades just the same as found on blades of certain kinds, i.e. Andrea Ferara on broad blades; Sahagun on a different kind of broad blade; Tomas Ayala on rapier blades, in fact the names were each a kind of brand for a certain type of sword".
Further, he notes that Calomarde in his "Historia Politica de Aragon" mentions an Andres Ferrara working in Saragossa, so the Solingen smiths using the name so freely probably were thinking of a Spaniard rather than an Italian. It is well known the Solingen smiths used Spanish names consistantly on thier export blades.

It has been suggested that the Latin term for iron (=ferrum) may be the root of the name, and that 'andrew', an early colloquial term for 'true' or 'good' may correspond to 'andrea'. The term 'andrea ferara' may then be applied as a quality mark, just as the German 'eisenhauer' (=iron cutter).
There is also the Italian place Ferrara, which may associate.

The Caucasian term (rather than name) 'David Peruli' may be considered in the same parlance mentioned here. I recall discussions with the author of an important book on Caucasian weapons years ago, in which I was told the term 'pranguli' was often applied to a particular type of straight bladed Khevsur sword. It is tempting to consider the apparant similarity of 'pranguli' and 'peruli' which may support this perspective.

I thought this material might prove of interest with regard to the terminology associated with sword blades.