The 'fly' markings

Jim McDougall · 16th June 2010, 04:33 AM

A short time ago Stephen posted a marking query from one of his kaskaras, and while this was of course on the ethnographic forum, it seems that this blade is likely a quite old European blade. It is about 32" long and seems to have been with the sword for some time, certainly well into the 19th century.

The marking on the blade is that which is identified with variations of these twig type markings on earlier Italian blades, but seems more commonly found on German made blades of from late 16th century into the 17th (Wallace collection A483, A576, A604).

I have seen these markings assigned to N. Italy and seem to correspond to some type of guild stamp, but apparantly German trade blade producers began adding them on blades along with other such familiar marks such as the running wolf. These curiously figured stamps apparantly are referred to in some Italian references as ' marca a mosca' or the mark of the fly.

It appears that the thread on early makers trademarks has been very successful as a resource, now well over 13,000 views, but is so large in size the last post was mine over a year ago, so I thought I would place this separately.

I'd like to see other examples of this curious stamp on blades, and of course any thoughts on its history, and variants. I have seen these termed 'twig' marks as well (Wallace Collection), and that they originate from Italy seems well set....they occur on schiavona and rapier blades, even armour I believe.

stephen wood · 30th June 2010, 12:22 AM

...thank you for starting this thread Jim - it's an interesting sword from a number of angles - the turned wooden grip and pommel, which I think is original, is unusual. The only other I recall seeing like that was owned by Anthony North and is chipped in the same way that affects the pommels of Sudanese daggers.

As I mentioned in another thread, I will be updating The Arms and Armour Society on my research - particularly with regard to markings - in August.

Gavin Nugent · 30th June 2010, 01:40 AM

I too have a couple of Guild blades in old Indian swords with this mark.
If I can find the time I'll get some images...not enough hours in the day.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 30th June 2010, 02:33 AM

Thanks very much Gav and Stephen for responding.
Gav, it would be great to see these marks seen on trade blades in Indian mounts....these blades certainly travelled far and wide, and the trade between India's western coasts, Arabia and into Africa via the Red Sea are well suggested with these.
Stephen, truly it is a great topic, and hope you will keep us posted on your presentation. Best wishes.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 3rd July 2010, 05:02 AM

Gents,

An image of the marking found on an early straight balded Tulwar.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2010, 08:10 PM

Thank you for posting this Gav!
The marking shown here was also regarded by Sir James Mann as the 'twig' marking, and known to occur in various configurations and numbers on European blades. Its appearance bracketed within the 'eyelash' marks suggests that the blade is indeed European ('firangi). Native applied copies of the markings seldom included these kinds of marks between them as far as I know. Naturally I'd like to hear of exceptions, if readers might respond.

All the best,
Jim

16th June 2010, 04:33 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	The 'fly' markings A short time ago Stephen posted a marking query from one of his kaskaras, and while this was of course on the ethnographic forum, it seems that this blade is likely a quite old European blade. It is about 32" long and seems to have been with the sword for some time, certainly well into the 19th century. The marking on the blade is that which is identified with variations of these twig type markings on earlier Italian blades, but seems more commonly found on German made blades of from late 16th century into the 17th (Wallace collection A483, A576, A604). I have seen these markings assigned to N. Italy and seem to correspond to some type of guild stamp, but apparantly German trade blade producers began adding them on blades along with other such familiar marks such as the running wolf. These curiously figured stamps apparantly are referred to in some Italian references as ' marca a mosca' or the mark of the fly. It appears that the thread on early makers trademarks has been very successful as a resource, now well over 13,000 views, but is so large in size the last post was mine over a year ago, so I thought I would place this separately. I'd like to see other examples of this curious stamp on blades, and of course any thoughts on its history, and variants. I have seen these termed 'twig' marks as well (Wallace Collection), and that they originate from Italy seems well set....they occur on schiavona and rapier blades, even armour I believe. Attached Images

30th June 2010, 01:40 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting I too have a couple of Guild blades in old Indian swords with this mark. If I can find the time I'll get some images...not enough hours in the day. Gav

3rd July 2010, 05:02 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	an image Gents, An image of the marking found on an early straight balded Tulwar. Gav Attached Images

30th June 2010, 12:22 AM	#2
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...thank you for starting this thread Jim - it's an interesting sword from a number of angles - the turned wooden grip and pommel, which I think is original, is unusual. The only other I recall seeing like that was owned by Anthony North and is chipped in the same way that affects the pommels of Sudanese daggers. As I mentioned in another thread, I will be updating The Arms and Armour Society on my research - particularly with regard to markings - in August.

30th June 2010, 02:33 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thanks very much Gav and Stephen for responding. Gav, it would be great to see these marks seen on trade blades in Indian mounts....these blades certainly travelled far and wide, and the trade between India's western coasts, Arabia and into Africa via the Red Sea are well suggested with these. Stephen, truly it is a great topic, and hope you will keep us posted on your presentation. Best wishes. All best regards, Jim

4th July 2010, 08:10 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you for posting this Gav! The marking shown here was also regarded by Sir James Mann as the 'twig' marking, and known to occur in various configurations and numbers on European blades. Its appearance bracketed within the 'eyelash' marks suggests that the blade is indeed European ('firangi). Native applied copies of the markings seldom included these kinds of marks between them as far as I know. Naturally I'd like to hear of exceptions, if readers might respond. All the best, Jim