Well made koummya

[corrado26]

I was lucky enough to buy three koummyas which I'd like to show here hoping that members are able to state how old these pieces might be. The biggest of the three has a total length of 470mm and ist blade is 280mm. The smallest one is made from silver with camel bone in the sheeth. It has 300mm and the blade is 154mm.

[corrado26]

more fotos:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Late 20TH C.

[Battara]

Yup!

[Bob A]

I'm curious regarding the factors that contribute to the dating process, if anyone would care to comment further.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Bob A

I'm curious regarding the factors that contribute to the dating process, if anyone would care to comment further.

There are many factors to be taken into consideration when estimating the date:

1. Style - for every weapon the overall style (style = size + shape + general decorations) eolved throughout the history (like for example during the end of Muromachi period, the size of the Japanese Katana decreased to adapt to a new figting style - with one hand - that was in fashion at that time; also the way the sword was worn changed from the Tachi type where the sword was hung edge down from the waist to the Uchigatana style with the sword worn edge up stuck in the obi);

2. Decorations - like with style, the shapes and symbols used in decorating an item evolved constantly, being strongly influenced by various historical events (for example when the Ottoman empire was at its peak, one could find decorations simiar to the Turkish ones throughout much of the Balkans, Arab Peninsula and North of Africa);

3. Materials - materials used in the manufacturing of blades can be an important indicator of their age (for example, one can safely assume a Khanjar with a wootz blade must be older than the begining of 19th century, since wootz production stopped about that time; at the same time, bakelite, plastic, aluminium or stainless steel are quick give-aways for some modern productions);

4. Workmanship - with the passage of time new tools and new techniques were developed and that can provide major indications about the age of a blade (if for example the grooves on a blade were not chiseled by hand but machined with a rotating tool);

5. Aging signs - like rust, oxidation, patina, cracks, wear and the like, are all important age indicators for a piece (for example ivory tends to develop a darker patina and cracks with the passage of time).

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

There are many factors to be taken into consideration when estimating the date:

1. Style - for every weapon the overall style (style = size + shape + general decorations) eveolved throughout the history (like for example during the end of Muromachi period, the size of the Japanese Katana decreased to adapt to a new figting style - with one hand - that was in fashion at that time; also the way the sword was worn changed from the Tachi type where the sword was hung edge down from the waist to the Uchigatana style with the sword worn edge up stuck in the obi);

2. Decorations - like with style, the shapes and symbols used in decorating an item evolved constantly, being strongly influenced by various historical events (for example when the Ottoman empire was at its peak, one could find decorations simiar to the Turkish ones throughout much of the Arab Peninsula and North of Africa);

3. Materials - materials used in the manufacturing of blades can be an important indicator of their age (for example, one can safely assume a Khanjar with a wootz blade must be older than the begining of 19th century, since wootz production stopped about that time);

4. Workmanship - with the passage of time new tools and new techniques were developed and that can provide major indications about the age of a blade (if for example the grooves on a blade were not chiseled by hand but machined with a rotating tool);

5. Aging signs - like rust, oxidation, patina, cracks, wear and the like, are all important age indicators for a piece (for example ivory tends to develop a darker patina and cracks with the passage of time).

A good and informative post

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Bob A

I'm curious regarding the factors that contribute to the dating process, if anyone would care to comment further.

No sign of wear / use at all.

[Kubur]

You have roughly, 3 kinds of koummiya

1/ the 19th ones with a good blade, most of the time a bayonet or a piece of a sword, good grip, good pommel

2/ the 1900-20ties ones with new material such as amber/bakelit
with very often a stamp on the ricasso

3/ the post 1950-60ties like the ones above

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/guide.html

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

You have roughly, 3 kinds of koummiya

1/ the 19th ones with a good blade, most of the time a bayonet or a piece of a sword, good grip, good pommel

2/ the 1900-20ties ones with new material such as amber/bakelit
with very often a stamp on the ricasso

3/ the post 1950-60ties like the ones above

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/guide.html

Hello Kubur,

I would extend the first cathegory into the 20th century, as I have seen good sturdy, traditional examples made at the begining of the 20th century, and merge 2 and 3 into one single cathegory of "modern" Koummiya mainly for tourist market. But I guess this is just a matter of individual preferences.

[corrado26]

I agree with the two smaller pieces probably made more recently, but I cannot agree with the big one having the same age. This is a very massivly made piece with a weight of nearly 500g, made of bronce (no brass) and iron sheet with an average thickness of more than 1,00 mm.
As Kubur says, " if for example the grooves on a blade were not chiseled by hand but machined with a rotating tool" this would be a sign of modern workmanship. That's ok, but with a normal magnifier one can see the traces of the knife that has cut the grooves in this blade.
Some more pictures - two Fotos in comparison with an old koummya of normal length - may help to clear some things.
Regards
corrado26

[Kubur]

Just the best, look at
http://nimcha.fr/koummya.htm
http://nimcha.fr/Family.htm
Please note the type Hanzer is in fact thre Moroccan version of Hanjar, Khanjar

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Kubur,
I have seen good sturdy, traditional examples made at the begining of the 20th century,

I totaly agree, it's the reason why I have this second category!!

[ward]

Most koummiya are 20th century. When you go to Morocco there are hundreds and hundreds of these knives in every city. Some are trash up to some that are very well made. Koftkagari is still being produced in Meknas. Blacksmiths still are producing work. Camel leather is still being produced the same way it has been for the last 1000 or more years. You can not think of items that are manufactured in a 3rd world country the same as you would in a more industrialized country. You have a country that I have seen satellite dishes being delivered by donkey and cart. You have a mix of machine made items with hand created items throughout most of the country.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Morocco is a remarkable country which has a rich tradition of ancient practices built in to its structure ....There are two types of people~ Those in Rural areas and those in Urban. The Rural people retain much of the superstitious traditional and quite incredible concepts and ideas going back hundreds of years. All the regions have little markets and you can bump into an old sage selling herbal cures and potents or amazing wandering people dressed like Robin Hood doing spells... In the big souks there are as has been stated thousands of daggers..all new...and you will be lucky to even see an old one except in museums/ proper antique shops...