Symbols on a yataghan blade

eftihis · 5th February 2008, 07:36 PM

Hallo, on this yataghan there is no translation issue, just these symbols engraved on the blade, that i havent sn before. They are engraved on both sides, identically. Does somebody knows the area it comes from or has seen similar designs?

TVV · 5th February 2008, 07:48 PM

The fuller is also interesting and unusual - could this have been a blade adopted from an older European hanger or something?

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2008, 09:12 PM

TVV makes a very good observation, this is obviously not a yataghan blade, and I cannot recall instantly where I have seen it, the curved wraparound at the back of the blade is familiar. It does seem likely that this blade could be from a hanger, quite possibly European.
The inscribed blade reflects more motif than any apparant symbolism, and I think that reviewing architectural style and motif might reveal more on the possible origin of the blade. Some of the references that address these type images seen on architecture such as Egyptian, Byzantine, Greek etc. show this type of imagery. There are the feathered plumes, plant type images as well as solar themed designs. Without checking further, I think of Egyptian temples, and a more detailed look might prove interesting.

I am not suggesting this blade or weapon is Egyptian, nor that the blade is European, but these indications are initial reactions in seeing this unusual yataghan hilted sword.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2008, 10:34 PM

Addendum,
In Stone, fig.243 #4, is shown a type of polearm termed the 'couteaux de breches' which was essentially a sword blade affixed to a shaft, and used in Europe from as early as 15th c. well into the 17th c. Example number 4 of these polearms in Stone's fig. 243 is German and of 16th c. and the choil like wraparound at the end of the blade, presenting a necklike effect on the blade is what was key in the similarity I was thinking of.
These polearms were apparantly often used by guards and similar court units as suggested in the examples shown in Stone, with the blades often highly decorated.
This inscribed motif, as I have noted, seems to reflect neoclassic influence of possibly architectural nature, and seems to suggest that type of imagery that was popular in Europe an latter 17th and into the 18th century. It seems plausible that a court weapon of this type might have been used even later in the traditional preferences observed in regalia.

This possibility presents even more interesting thoughts with this blade mounted in this hilt.
As always looking forward to other observations.

RSWORD · 5th February 2008, 10:53 PM

Jim,

I think you have made some interesting observations. Even some of the decoration on the blade reminds oneself of halberd or polearm forms. We have to remember the "Siege of Vienna" and the horde of weapons that were invariably interchanged at that time so it seems quite plausible that a few "couteaux de breches" could have landed with the Ottoman army and became a family heirloom to later be mounted with yataghan hilt as a trophy from the distant past.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2008, 02:47 AM

Thank you so much Rick! You're right on the Siege of Vienna, I hadn't thought of that most important event. In the Stone reference, there was an Austrian example alongside the German one, but the profile of the German example seemed to correspond more to this blade.
It would seem this yataghan has some very interesting history!

All the best,
Jim

eftihis · 6th February 2008, 07:56 PM

Thank you Jim and Rick!
Actually this yataghan belonged to a group of weapons which belonged to a deceased old collector. Inside there are some items from the time of Vienna siege!

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2008, 02:19 AM

Thank you Eftihis! for letting us know.
What an incredibly provenanced piece this is.
All very best regards,
Jim

5th February 2008, 07:36 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 506	Symbols on a yataghan blade Hallo, on this yataghan there is no translation issue, just these symbols engraved on the blade, that i havent sn before. They are engraved on both sides, identically. Does somebody knows the area it comes from or has seen similar designs? Attached Images

5th February 2008, 07:48 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,617	The fuller is also interesting and unusual - could this have been a blade adopted from an older European hanger or something?

5th February 2008, 09:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,930	TVV makes a very good observation, this is obviously not a yataghan blade, and I cannot recall instantly where I have seen it, the curved wraparound at the back of the blade is familiar. It does seem likely that this blade could be from a hanger, quite possibly European. The inscribed blade reflects more motif than any apparant symbolism, and I think that reviewing architectural style and motif might reveal more on the possible origin of the blade. Some of the references that address these type images seen on architecture such as Egyptian, Byzantine, Greek etc. show this type of imagery. There are the feathered plumes, plant type images as well as solar themed designs. Without checking further, I think of Egyptian temples, and a more detailed look might prove interesting. I am not suggesting this blade or weapon is Egyptian, nor that the blade is European, but these indications are initial reactions in seeing this unusual yataghan hilted sword.

5th February 2008, 10:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,930	Addendum, In Stone, fig.243 #4, is shown a type of polearm termed the 'couteaux de breches' which was essentially a sword blade affixed to a shaft, and used in Europe from as early as 15th c. well into the 17th c. Example number 4 of these polearms in Stone's fig. 243 is German and of 16th c. and the choil like wraparound at the end of the blade, presenting a necklike effect on the blade is what was key in the similarity I was thinking of. These polearms were apparantly often used by guards and similar court units as suggested in the examples shown in Stone, with the blades often highly decorated. This inscribed motif, as I have noted, seems to reflect neoclassic influence of possibly architectural nature, and seems to suggest that type of imagery that was popular in Europe an latter 17th and into the 18th century. It seems plausible that a court weapon of this type might have been used even later in the traditional preferences observed in regalia. This possibility presents even more interesting thoughts with this blade mounted in this hilt. As always looking forward to other observations.

5th February 2008, 10:53 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Jim, I think you have made some interesting observations. Even some of the decoration on the blade reminds oneself of halberd or polearm forms. We have to remember the "Siege of Vienna" and the horde of weapons that were invariably interchanged at that time so it seems quite plausible that a few "couteaux de breches" could have landed with the Ottoman army and became a family heirloom to later be mounted with yataghan hilt as a trophy from the distant past.

6th February 2008, 02:47 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,930	Thank you so much Rick! You're right on the Siege of Vienna, I hadn't thought of that most important event. In the Stone reference, there was an Austrian example alongside the German one, but the profile of the German example seemed to correspond more to this blade. It would seem this yataghan has some very interesting history! All the best, Jim

6th February 2008, 07:56 PM	#7
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 506	Thank you Jim and Rick! Actually this yataghan belonged to a group of weapons which belonged to a deceased old collector. Inside there are some items from the time of Vienna siege!

7th February 2008, 02:19 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,930	Thank you Eftihis! for letting us know. What an incredibly provenanced piece this is. All very best regards, Jim