Wotsit no. 3

kronckew · 12th August 2019, 07:29 PM

Picked this up on an auction today on a whim, cost only a few pounds, Billed as a Spanish sword with an etched blade, it looks a bit touristy. Steel Guard i s a bit intriguing tho, seems to have an eagle crest with maybe a crown over it, maybe a stacked leather grip? Looks more like a cutlass or hanger.

The pommel looks like a knights helmet. no data otherwise.

Etch shows Spanish poetry, translates similar to our English phrase "God helps those that help themselves"...

(It says in a bit of an abbreviated form, roughly " Don't beg God until you have hammered the iron yourself".)

Could this be So. American? Mexican? Anyone recogize the crest?

I've enhanced the photo contrast to pseudo HDR: (The reddish areas seem to be exaggerated artifacts rather than rust.

Thanks for any comments.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2019, 11:43 PM

Wayne you really pick up some odd 'whotsits'.

.
I cant really see the crest in the cartouche, made 'in the manner' of the British 'gothic' hilts of military officers swords 19th c.
The knights helm may suggest a Masonic item, and as you know probably not very old, but a bit 'theatric' as often seen in such regalia.
Beyond that, hard to imagine what it might be.

fernando · 13th August 2019, 12:50 PM

I am impressed by your translating skills, Wayne

.
Indeed this is a very Spanish (Castillian) refrain, surely older than your wotsit

.
It is invoked twice by Sancho in Cervantes great work Dom Quixote de la Mancha. From then on, a lot of interpretations has been given to this phrase (some anecdotal) but all within similar connotation. From the Sufi parable "Trust in Allah but tether your camel first" to the period of Pizarro in Cuzco where his men had the smiths engraving in their swords the phrase 'corrupted', swapping the mallet for espada (sword).
The picture you post is rather fuzzy, crest pommel and all. Wait till you get the thing in hands and check whether (hopefully) it is not a decoration item ... which i am afraid it certainly is

.

kronckew · 13th August 2019, 02:48 PM

Google translate failed me. Had to do a bit more research & found a reference to Spanish poetry for the hammer part and a bit more serendipity let me stumble on a proper translation of a Spanish poem and an explanation of it's connection to our English version. The Spanish one is more artistic & decorative tho.

The Mexicans seem to have a habit of etching stiff like that on their personal weapons...

I can see the below crest in there if I squint hard enough. All will be revealed on it's arrival. The crest below is a gold damascene version of the Royal crest of Toledoon a button. As noted it is at least decorative...

kronckew · 17th August 2019, 12:56 PM

Ah, well, sword arrived. As I had secretly suspected, It's Mexican, marked "Noriega Hermanos" hecho Mexico, they apparently make 'Collectable sword machetes. Heavy broad distal tapered blade,butter-knife sharp edge, guard looks like cast aluminum, rest is a single headed n eagle, rampant lion shield on blade ricasso. grip is indeed stacked leather and thicker around than I like. No scabbard, needs reprofiling when I get around to it. Not of the highest quality I'd say. Other side is also etched with a pair of hunting lions, a female and a maned male in a jungle scene. Not terribly well balanced. Bit of rust here and there. Pommel is indeed a knights helmet in aluminum. It cost about the same as a couple pints of beer in London.

so no gret tragedy.

MY other Mexican sword machete (below) is a lot finer & better made & useable. It's made by a better mfg. in Oaxaca. Mexico. It is cool. (And Odd)

12th August 2019, 07:29 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Wotsit no. 3 Picked this up on an auction today on a whim, cost only a few pounds, Billed as a Spanish sword with an etched blade, it looks a bit touristy. Steel Guard i s a bit intriguing tho, seems to have an eagle crest with maybe a crown over it, maybe a stacked leather grip? Looks more like a cutlass or hanger. The pommel looks like a knights helmet. no data otherwise. Etch shows Spanish poetry, translates similar to our English phrase "God helps those that help themselves"... (It says in a bit of an abbreviated form, roughly " Don't beg God until you have hammered the iron yourself".) Could this be So. American? Mexican? Anyone recogize the crest? I've enhanced the photo contrast to pseudo HDR: (The reddish areas seem to be exaggerated artifacts rather than rust. Thanks for any comments. Attached Images

13th August 2019, 02:48 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Google translate failed me. Had to do a bit more research & found a reference to Spanish poetry for the hammer part and a bit more serendipity let me stumble on a proper translation of a Spanish poem and an explanation of it's connection to our English version. The Spanish one is more artistic & decorative tho. The Mexicans seem to have a habit of etching stiff like that on their personal weapons... I can see the below crest in there if I squint hard enough. All will be revealed on it's arrival. The crest below is a gold damascene version of the Royal crest of Toledoon a button. As noted it is at least decorative... Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 13th August 2019 at 03:20 PM.

17th August 2019, 12:56 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Ah, well, sword arrived. As I had secretly suspected, It's Mexican, marked "Noriega Hermanos" hecho Mexico, they apparently make 'Collectable sword machetes. Heavy broad distal tapered blade,butter-knife sharp edge, guard looks like cast aluminum, rest is a single headed n eagle, rampant lion shield on blade ricasso. grip is indeed stacked leather and thicker around than I like. No scabbard, needs reprofiling when I get around to it. Not of the highest quality I'd say. Other side is also etched with a pair of hunting lions, a female and a maned male in a jungle scene. Not terribly well balanced. Bit of rust here and there. Pommel is indeed a knights helmet in aluminum. It cost about the same as a couple pints of beer in London. so no gret tragedy. MY other Mexican sword machete (below) is a lot finer & better made & useable. It's made by a better mfg. in Oaxaca. Mexico. It is cool. (And Odd) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 17th August 2019 at 01:17 PM.

12th August 2019, 11:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Wayne you really pick up some odd 'whotsits'. . I cant really see the crest in the cartouche, made 'in the manner' of the British 'gothic' hilts of military officers swords 19th c. The knights helm may suggest a Masonic item, and as you know probably not very old, but a bit 'theatric' as often seen in such regalia. Beyond that, hard to imagine what it might be.

13th August 2019, 12:50 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I am impressed by your translating skills, Wayne . Indeed this is a very Spanish (Castillian) refrain, surely older than your wotsit . It is invoked twice by Sancho in Cervantes great work Dom Quixote de la Mancha. From then on, a lot of interpretations has been given to this phrase (some anecdotal) but all within similar connotation. From the Sufi parable "Trust in Allah but tether your camel first" to the period of Pizarro in Cuzco where his men had the smiths engraving in their swords the phrase 'corrupted', swapping the mallet for espada (sword). The picture you post is rather fuzzy, crest pommel and all. Wait till you get the thing in hands and check whether (hopefully) it is not a decoration item ... which i am afraid it certainly is .