Anyone seen this stamp?

mahratt · 9th September 2012, 11:32 AM

The colleague from Russian forum asks about the help. Anyone seen this stamp:"U.L.D" ?

Jens Nordlunde · 9th September 2012, 09:50 PM

Is it the same mark on both blades, and are they etched?
The first blade seems to be Indian, as it is pattern welded, and the second one is likely to be Indian as well.
It is likely that there is an European involvement, as the letters are Latin letters - or maybe some Indians wanted to be 'modern'.
Jens

Runjeet Singh · 10th September 2012, 10:22 AM

U.L.D. could be the initials of the owner. This is common practice in India, owners tend to label personal belongings with their name or initials. Indians love abbreviations!

U.L.D. also happens to be the Train Station code for Achalda, a Town in Auraiya district in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. I do not know of an armoury or fort in the town, but the nearby city of Etawah has significant military history where it was involved in the First War of Indian Independence in 1857.

It may just be a coincidence. Sorry I cannot be more definitive.

Pictured below is an Indian dagger I recently had possession of, with a marking of ALG (also Romanised), so presumably done during British rule. I believe it was from Aligarh district, also from the state of Uttar Pardesh - locally known as U.P (see what I mean about abbreviations)!

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

mahratt · 11th September 2012, 04:08 AM

Thank you very much for your answers.

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2012, 03:37 AM

Interesting question, and I think Runjeet has offering some reasonable speculation as far as the possible initials of either organization or district in the British administrative web during the Raj. The first open hilt tulwar appears to be a court or state sword which with straight blade I think is termed 'sukhela' in classifications. It is NW Indian and again by hilt form seems Rajasthani.
The one with heavy yelmaned blade is similar to others of this form and hilt which seem to be termed 'tegha', though the exact nature of this form has been disputed. The others I have seen like this also have the cartouche in similar location on blade near edge at langet, one is in "Islamic Arms and Armour from Private Danish Collections", Copenhagen, 1982, #174, as found in notes but I do not have the book. Unsure of what is in the cartouche but it seems oval. Another was sold in December, 2011 with similar hilt (these appear Rajasthani also) and the cartouche with illegible markings in oval.

I would suggest these initials may represent the official property of one of the districts in India, perhaps these arms belonged to groups or units in certain capacity. Even many large firms and railroad agencies had thier own police or security forces. I recall that one railroad agency in Baroda even had swords made in the British M1853 pattern by Rodwell & Co. made for them.

Just speculation of course, and as always, look forward to other views.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 12th September 2012, 01:51 PM

Hi Jim,
Here the tegha is.

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2012, 06:04 PM

Jens, thank you so much for posting that tegha, which gives a good comparison and for your helpful notes earlier as well.
Runjeet thank you for placing your input on this topic also.
There always seems to be a distinct aversion to participation on these kinds of topics, especially on markings on Indian arms. I think it is due mostly to the esoterica of the subject as well as the paucity of information available.

That is the reason I had hoped to establish at least some sort of benchmark here on this marking, which I think is actually etched rather than stamped. I appreciate Mahratt posting this for that opportunity, and hopefully he will offer response from his colleague and perhaps any suggestions from the forum he refers to and thier suggestions.

10th September 2012, 10:22 AM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	U.L.D. could be the initials of the owner. This is common practice in India, owners tend to label personal belongings with their name or initials. Indians love abbreviations! U.L.D. also happens to be the Train Station code for Achalda, a Town in Auraiya district in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. I do not know of an armoury or fort in the town, but the nearby city of Etawah has significant military history where it was involved in the First War of Indian Independence in 1857. It may just be a coincidence. Sorry I cannot be more definitive. Pictured below is an Indian dagger I recently had possession of, with a marking of ALG (also Romanised), so presumably done during British rule. I believe it was from Aligarh district, also from the state of Uttar Pardesh - locally known as U.P (see what I mean about abbreviations)! Kind Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

12th September 2012, 01:51 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Here the tegha is. Attached Images

9th September 2012, 11:32 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Anyone seen this stamp? The colleague from Russian forum asks about the help. Anyone seen this stamp:"U.L.D" ?

9th September 2012, 09:50 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Is it the same mark on both blades, and are they etched? The first blade seems to be Indian, as it is pattern welded, and the second one is likely to be Indian as well. It is likely that there is an European involvement, as the letters are Latin letters - or maybe some Indians wanted to be 'modern'. Jens

11th September 2012, 04:08 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Thank you very much for your answers.

12th September 2012, 03:37 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Interesting question, and I think Runjeet has offering some reasonable speculation as far as the possible initials of either organization or district in the British administrative web during the Raj. The first open hilt tulwar appears to be a court or state sword which with straight blade I think is termed 'sukhela' in classifications. It is NW Indian and again by hilt form seems Rajasthani. The one with heavy yelmaned blade is similar to others of this form and hilt which seem to be termed 'tegha', though the exact nature of this form has been disputed. The others I have seen like this also have the cartouche in similar location on blade near edge at langet, one is in "Islamic Arms and Armour from Private Danish Collections", Copenhagen, 1982, #174, as found in notes but I do not have the book. Unsure of what is in the cartouche but it seems oval. Another was sold in December, 2011 with similar hilt (these appear Rajasthani also) and the cartouche with illegible markings in oval. I would suggest these initials may represent the official property of one of the districts in India, perhaps these arms belonged to groups or units in certain capacity. Even many large firms and railroad agencies had thier own police or security forces. I recall that one railroad agency in Baroda even had swords made in the British M1853 pattern by Rodwell & Co. made for them. Just speculation of course, and as always, look forward to other views. Best regards, Jim

13th September 2012, 06:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Jens, thank you so much for posting that tegha, which gives a good comparison and for your helpful notes earlier as well. Runjeet thank you for placing your input on this topic also. There always seems to be a distinct aversion to participation on these kinds of topics, especially on markings on Indian arms. I think it is due mostly to the esoterica of the subject as well as the paucity of information available. That is the reason I had hoped to establish at least some sort of benchmark here on this marking, which I think is actually etched rather than stamped. I appreciate Mahratt posting this for that opportunity, and hopefully he will offer response from his colleague and perhaps any suggestions from the forum he refers to and thier suggestions.