Curious Kastane - Thoughts?

[derek]

Hi guys,
Been a while, glad to see so many familiar names still here.
I rarely pick up new items these days, but this one caught my eye and the price was right.

I've done my homework on blades from Sri Lanka, and while this is definitely a Ceylonese-style kastane, there is something about it that makes me think its someone else's interpretation of a kastane.

We saw that years ago with a European repro of a piha kaetta that was beautifully executed, but obviously not made in Ceylon.

The work on this one just isn't quite the same as the ones that the 4 Workshops (Pattal Hattara) would have produced, but its not a lame attempt either. The metal work reminds me of some finer presentation kukris I've seen.

Thoughts?

[spiral]

Hopefully I am wrong but with the strange & flat looking cast side heads,
it looks like a modern Chinese Copy to me.

spiral

[derek]

Hi Spiral,
It may be hard to tell from the pics, but the scabbard is all hand work, with a good bit of detail, but not quite like the typical patterns in Sinhalese art. Its much more similar (to me) to metal work on presentation kukris.

The metal (handle, quillons, head) is not heavy or rough, not flat either. The head on the pommel is nicely rounded with a lot of polish.

I'm doubting Chinese repro, but repro of some sort is my suspicion. If its Chinese they have seriously upped their game. Right now I'm guessing Indian due to the scabbard, and probably not for a modern tourist market. Maybe several decades (or more) back?

[derek]

I noticed that the photos give it a brass hue. Its more silver alloy with what may have been a gold wash at some point that has worn off a lot.
The bottom of the scabbard was left silver by design in the smooth area, exactly like an old kukri scabbard I once owned. I wish I could find a pic....

[spiral]

Hi Derek,

My reference to the heads was more to the lower guard/upper scabbard ones.

I could be wrong & hope I am but for the last 5 years at least many original ethnographic pieces have been bought & shipped into China.

Sadly yes they have upped their game.. just as they have in every other manufacturing industry.

I should say Ive never owned a Kastane, {real or not.} Im just saying how it appears to me.

The work doesn't accurately resemble any presentation kukri I can think of, but the flower design & tendrils does look like some lotus,rhodenron & tendril seen on some kukri... but Id say not truly the same.

Hopefully either way someone knows exactly what this is.

Is the blade distally tapered or same diameter till near the tip?

Spiral

[derek]

Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals.

Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture!

The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished.

I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

[spiral]

mmm We will have to wait for others with experience I guess.

I think its almost a fantasy fake, {A dragon sword.} & if they make 100 for $20 each & they sell for a $100 each I would guess theve had a good result.

But Alex, Ariel, Charles, Artzi RS etc can comment on there perceptions of it & knowledge.

Truly hope I'm wrong & its some super rare valuable specimen.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by derek

Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals.

Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture!

The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished.

I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

Salaams Derek... I have to say the item is a copy... but may be either from Sri Lanka or India as a tourist sword.. It looks too worn/polished to be recent Chinese...but it could be... For sure then~ its not a real Kastane ... but it could be a belly dancer item. Often, however,they have inverted blades...to more easily balance on top of the performers head! ~ used in Belly Dancing in North Africa...Morocco etc...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[CharlesS]

To my eye the blade looks pretty badly produced...but actually many outstanding kastanes have very poor blades as these types are "to be seen" status pieces.

The more troubling thing is the 'silver' work which, again, to my eye looks "pressed" or molded, perhaps even cast and then finished. Some tourist items of this type, that is, with pressed or molded alloy metal, can be seen coming out of Indonesia.

I would not dare to speculate too much on this piece without actually having it in hand, but from what I can see, I agree with the conclusion that it may be some sort or mass produced tourist mock-up of a kastane. Like so many things of that type, they can look darn good from a distance!

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It looks too worn/polished to be recent Chinese...but it could be...

Its amazing what a machine buffer will wear away & polish.... .

Could be Indian but looks to my eye to be made by someone, just copying something they had no conception off. Looks Chinese to my eye, but I think the Indian would do it better... But I could be wrong.

I seem to recall Gavin had valuable input on the Kastane? & has seem many fakes in the auctions he peruses as well.

Hopefully he will look in.

Spiral

[derek]

Well,
I decided to go back to the seller and ask him for more details about this thing. Turns out it was part of a lot that was sold for a widow who brought it back from Sri Lanka with her husband some years ago. Apparently they had some difficulty getting their purchases shipped back at that time.

So, I have seen a piha that I was pretty certain was a later reproduction. By that I mean produced sometime after 1815 and the disbanding of the Royal Workshops. If the information is accurate, this would be the first kastane that I would call a later tourist repro from Sri Lanka, but it is true enough to the originals in form and detail that I could believe it.

The pics aren't doing it justice. It's a pretty little wall hanger.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see library for Kastane ...or hit http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kastane

[David]

Derek, i'm pretty sure you are on the right track viewing this example as a later tourist quality repro. I think that if you spend enough time looking at actual kastane in the thread Ibrahiim just linked to you will see that the level of attention to detail in the real kastanes seen there is far more intensive than the hilt details on your example. While the blades on true kastane are often not of high quality, being meant mostly for status display, the dress is usually impeccably detailed and of a very high level of craftsmanship. Ibrahiim suggested the possibility that this could be a dance kastane for belly dancing, but that seems highly unlikely to me. Pictures can be deceptive, but i just don't see that your example could possibly have the kind of balance necessary for use in belly dancing where the back edge of the sword is balances on the head, hips, etc. during the act of the dance. Those blades are also generally longer and curved as Ibrahiim has already pointed out. But as you say, it should be a very nice wall hanger.

[derek]

Hi David,
Agreed. Belly Dancing swords are normally curved for balancing on the head.

Keep in mind the example in the thread above is off the charts in terms of detail and quality. Artzi has offered a few that were close to that quality in the past, but you don't see them often. Most are of the more average kind.

I have owned 2 other kastanes that are much more typical (still have one) and they are plain by comparison. Still beautiful, but far less ornate. In fact, I saw this week that there is a very typical example on auction now.

I also currently have 25 piha kaetta of various sizes and quality. I started the pihakaetta.com site years ago, when I had time for that stuff
Some are so ornate and delicate that I hate to handle them. Others are more plain and "utilitarian" by comparison. The quality of the work on them also varies - some, not a lot.

Among that lot I have a few I would describe as weirdos. They just don't seem to represent the Sinhalese art form, but one of those was purchased directly from a gallery in Colombo, and the blade is definitely old. Old stuff can't talk, so we play detective, which is half the fun.

Jim, great thread, I was reading through it earlier this week.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

[derek]

Jim,
I noted that you reference Medieval Sinhalese Art", (A.K. Coomaraswany, 1956)
in that post. I remember getting 2 copies of that from the book shop in Sri Lanka and passed one along to a forumite. Was that you?
It's probably been a decade and I've slept (although not enough - 4 kids) since then.

[David]

Originally Posted by derek

I also currently have 25 pita kaetta of various sizes and quality. I started the pihakaetta.com site years ago, when I had time for that stuff

Yes Derek, i am very aware (and a bit envious) of your excellent collection of piha kaetta. If ever there was a blade i could get addicted to collecting besides the keris it would be those which is probably why i have resisted picking one up so far. I'm afraid that once i started i would not be able to stop.

[derek]

Wife: "How many of these is enough?"
Me:"Just one more "

[David]

Originally Posted by derek

Wife: "How many of these is enough?"
Me:"Just one more "

As your self-appointed marriage counselor please allow me to help you. Send half your collection to me. I'm not picky. Any old Piha will do…

[derek]

I see what you did there