A gamble, your opinion?

[Sajen]

Hello,

have bought this keris: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251108487966...84.m1439.l2649
There have been only a few expressionless pictures posted but what I am able to see is that all, the blade and dress as well, are good worked.
What do you think?

[VANDOO]

I LIKE IT AND THE PRICE WAS CERTIANLY RIGHT. THE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND FITTINGS LOOKS LIKE GOOD WORK AND THE WOOD LOOKS TO HAVE A NICE GRAIN. HARD TO TELL IF ITS AN OLD BLADE REWORKED, OR NEWER BLADE AND WORK DONE TOGETHER WHEN THE KERIS WAS MADE. EITHER WAY A VERY ATTRACTIVE KERIS.

[Atlantia]

Hi Detlef,

What a great looking Keris. All the elements look really nicely made, congratulations.
I look forward to seeing more pictures when you have it with you.
Best
Gene

[David]

I look forward to better photos when you receive this. I could be wrong, but i am not sure this looks like pre-WW2 kinatah work to me. I hope you bought the kerns and not the story...

[Sajen]

Thank you Barry, Gene and David for comment. I don't think that the keris is very old but like you see it is good worked and I am byself very curious to see it in real and hold it in my hands. It will be special very interesting if the kinatah is from gold. And of course I don't bought the story!

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

The photos give me the impression that the kinatah is brass, but this can be very deceptive. I hope that you find otherwise once you have the keris in hand.
If the story were correct and this was brought back from WW2 you would have done quite well on this one, as this would then have to be a pre-WW2 blade. That might be just a bit too good a deal to hold out hope for, i'm afraid...

[Jean]

I would agree with David regarding the materials of the kinatah, I apparently see some traces of "vert de gris" (green copper compound) on the reverse side of the blade, which should indicate that the kinatah is from brass (may be gilt).
Regarding the estimated age of the piece, the seller just says that it was brought to the US after WW2 but this is not a very accurate statement From the pictures and if it was my decision I would categorize the kris as probably from tangguh kamardikan muda Madura but of course I can prove wrong and the piece is quite well made.
The seller also proposes another kris with a kinatah blade of similar quality.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Regarding the estimated age of the piece, the seller just says that it was brought to the US after WW2 but this is not a very accurate statement

Yeah Jean, i think this was left intentionally ambiguous. Of course, the intention is also to get you to think it might be a WW2 bring back, but i don't see that as particularly likely.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

I would agree with David regarding the materials of the kinatah, I apparently see some traces of "vert de gris" (green copper compound) on the reverse side of the blade, which should indicate that the kinatah is from brass (may be gilt).

Hello Jean,

this is what I see as well and I think when the brass is gilded it is a good catch by this price. I don't think that it is kinatah mas, otherwise it would be too much luck!

Regards,

Detlef

[DAHenkel]

in the eighties keris of this type were fairly common in Jalan Surabaya. I would make this about 30 years old giver or take a few year...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

in the eighties keris of this type were fairly common in Jalan Surabaya. I would make this about 30 years old giver or take a few year...

Hello Dave,

for whom they were made? And was the quality good?

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

Since you are asking for opinions, Detlef; I would say that I might like this keris more without the brass 'kinatah' overlayed .

Just a sculpture in the pamor itself I would find more interesting .. no need for gloss, IMO .

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

for whom they were made?

I think that for the answer to this we might want to consider just what the significance of the addition of gold kinatah might mean in the culture. Who was a blade with gold kinatah meant for? Then ask, who then would a keris with brass kinatah be made for...

[A. G. Maisey]

I started to see keris with brass kinatah, and brass kinatah gold plated, in the late 1980's, and they continue to be available until today.

As with virtually all keris of the modern era they are made for local consumption, and they are bought by Indonesians as dress keris. Obviously the people who buy them want a bit of bling and cannot afford gold.

I have seen much older keris with kinatah from brass and from alloys other than gold, but these are not common.

The right to kinatah work on a keris was sometimes granted by a ruler, much as medals are given in our own society, however in the far distant past it was also a prerogative of rank. In more recent times --- and I don't know from precisely when --- kinatah was used by anybody who wanted it and could afford it.

As a general rule, we seldom find kinatah work combined with complex pamor.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have seen much older keris with kinatah from brass and from alloys other than gold, but these are not common.

Pages 181 and 182 show such a Keris if anyone has a copy of "Ferro, oro, pietre prezoise...Le Armi Orientali Dell'Armeris Reale Di Torino.

Gav

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

Since you are asking for opinions, Detlef; I would say that I might like this keris more without the brass 'kinatah' overlayed .

Just a sculpture in the pamor itself I would find more interesting .. no need for gloss, IMO .

Hi Rick,

I have tried the gamble because it seems that the quality is good and I personally like keris with kinatah. Let us see what I have bought when I have received it and I can post better pictures. When I was wrong is the amount I have given wasn't extrem!

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I started to see keris with brass kinatah, and brass kinatah gold plated, in the late 1980's, and they continue to be available until today.

As with virtually all keris of the modern era they are made for local consumption, and they are bought by Indonesians as dress keris. Obviously the people who buy them want a bit of bling and cannot afford gold.

Thank you Alan, this is what I want to know.

Regards,

Detlef

[DAHenkel]

Agree with Alan more or less. I was in Jakarta '85 - 86 and remember seing quite a few of these. Quite variable in quality from fairly good - like yours, all the way to hideous. The big difference these days is that the top end of the market has improved markedly. Your pieces was about as good as it got in those days. Today, there are newly made pieces that rival the artistry of the great old pieces. Wasn't a lot of that around in the mid-Eighties...at least, not on Jalan Surabaya ;o)

[rasjid]

Hi Detlef,

As mentioned previously, this is newly made and still available in the market. It is a good keris and fittings for the price paid (i dont know how much they charge for postage), you are doing allright Some people pay even more in Jakarta. Especially people who never connected on the Internet.

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
This is brass under neath as Jane mentioned (Green Stuff). Some newer model comes with additional gold n Silver also.

Regards
Rasjid

[Sajen]

Dave and Rasjid,

thank you both for the additional informations.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Originally Posted by rasjid

Real Kinatah gold - newly made sometimes sold for over US$10,000 because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris.
Regards
Rasjid

Attached is the picture of a probably recent blade with 22Kt? gold kinatah on a brass base. I realized it recently because the kinatah is peeling off at one corner due to the lack of care from myself so I could see the underlying brass base, but the gold coating is quite thick actually. Your comments will be welcome.
Regards

[Sajen]

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality! Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

[rasjid]

Hi Jean,

From your explanation, i agree this is recently Made.

If you are reffering that if this is the standard for the one on offer for over $10,000. Short answer is No.

For this price, the keris is well made and carved with full gold underneath, correctly executed (not welded like Madura work) but for experienced Collectors, still can be identified. The gold could be over 100gr, remember you need more gold than you have to, if you asked someone else to do it.

I'm not reffering that i'm An expert on this, but try to understand and learn something here.

Rasjid







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[David]

Perhaps Rasjid, it would be helpful if you posted an example of just the kind of keris you are talking about. I also understood your previous comment to imply that these keris of which you speak were not really worth that kind of money, but sold at an inflated rate "because sold as 95% utuh/condition and Old keris".
From that i get that these keris were fraudulently sold as "old keris". Was this what you meant to say?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

nice keris of good quality! Do you know if the kinatah work is a traditinonal motif? Also when the pendok is of good quality I would change it against a closed one since the sheath isn't iras.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef and Rasjid,
I never saw such a kinatah motif before so I suppose that it was created from the imagination of the maker but I find it very decorative. The quality of the kinatah is not excellent but still quite good IMO and the amount of gold is significant.
I agree that I should replace the pendok blewah by a closed one but it needs to be golden colour for matching with the kinatah blade and I did not find a suitable one yet (only bling-bling pieces).
Rasjid, we should not discuss about price or value in this forum, let me just say that I paid the price of a brand new Mercedes Benz for this piece but a miniature one!
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

It is not just a matter of artistic ornamentation.

It must be gold, because of the societal and esoteric qualities of gold.

It cannot be silver, it cannot be brass, it cannot be gold plated brass.

It must be gold.

It is never cheap, nor even reasonably priced.


Kinatah-like ornamentation is not bound by the rules which apply to traditional kinatah. Some of this work can be quite old, quite beautiful and it can also be gold, but its prime purpose is to ornament the blade. Because it is not subject to the same rules as traditional kinatah it can come in brass, gold plated brass, silver, or whatever else might give an artistic effect.

In essence this type of blade ornamentation can be considered to be primarily artistic.

[rasjid]

I can't put someone else keris in this forum and discredit them
Yes David, the Keris is sold as old keris but I wont argue about the keris and its depending the buyer if they are prepared to spend and risk their money on it.

How many more out there good keris with old Kinatah work ? I'm talking long before 1900's

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.

rasjid

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Traditional kinatah on a Javanese or a Balinese blade has specified meaning and more or less set design.

This is an interesting topic. If I may ask, is there remaining knowledge as to what degree does this "set design" has to fall onto? In other words, what forms the parameters of the "set design" - is there a documented pakem of sorts that must be followed or is it more of a custom transformed onto an unspoken rule, something in between or something else?

Thanks,

J.

[GIO]

It is only my personal opinion, but I think the range of designs is rather big, and can be modified to a certain extent according to the taste of the maker.
It could be like the designs on the embossed pendoks: they follow certain base standards, but can be adapted to the maker's taste.

[David]

Originally Posted by rasjid

This is my own keris with Kinatah work, so any comment is welcome. I hope this one dont have "free" brass underneath.
Sorry for the low photo quality.

Looks beautiful and well executed regardless of age.