An iron sheath ... or a frame of it, for comments

fernando · 3rd November 2019, 05:50 PM

I would love to know what you guys think of this one.
Assuming it all starts by its age, what would you say; old, very old, recent, very recent...
The first two pictures show how it was before i gave it some (hopefuly) non invasive cleaning with penetrating oil and a super soft brass brush.
Rust came off in lose particles, but also in the form of some entire layers from its interior; only one bit is left. I don't know what to think of that upper rivet, that shines white. The spherical (ball) point is secured with a rivet (nail), not just attached by pressure. Those two (sort of) hooks would be for securing the body plates ...

Your comments ill be so much welcome

.

,

Mel H · 3rd November 2019, 08:52 PM

A protective end from a wood tool or implement?

David R · 4th November 2019, 01:45 AM

It looks like the iron binding on a later Roman Pugio scabbard. As for what it actually is........

fernando · 4th November 2019, 12:26 PM

Thank you for your kind comments, Gentlemen.
Mel, i would be surprised if this were indeed a tool protection device, with its hanging loops and other design details.
David, that was my own initial atempt at identify this thing. Let me show you what has influenced my thoughts.
Now, my doubts on its age and authencity remain unvanished.
That shining rivet kills me

.

Any further comments ?

.

David R · 4th November 2019, 05:24 PM

Historical reenactments have been ongoing for the last 40 years or more, some of our kit is now well aged enough to be passed off as original. Just a thought.

Will M · 5th November 2019, 03:37 AM

Any context to where it was found and when?
i would say not more than a century old.
The ball on the end could be a pivot point. It's not a weapon or part of one.

fernando · 5th November 2019, 12:02 PM

Ho ... well; one century is better than half one. And in such case prior to re-enacting habits ... i guess ?
Also assuming this sheath was once complete, with its side plates made in a degradable material, like wood, it would be difficult that not a splinter was left, or stuck to the rust, after only a few decades ... my guess.
It was purportedly found in the Portuguese upper Southwest coast.
When i mention the ball in the end being secured with a 'nail', was just to describe the fixation technique. Actually when i check it again, i can see a pin going through the whole thing; pointing out in both sides
Here are pictures taken before i brought it.

.

fernando · 6th November 2019, 12:42 PM

Any further thoughts, Gentlemen ? ...

Mel H · 6th November 2019, 07:23 PM

My thinking was more of something that was a permanent component part of the tool, used to protect the soft wood while in use, rather than a removable tool protection device.
I'm sure that someone will recognise it.
Being the owner of several mystery objects acquired over the years, I'd be interested to know.

fernando · 7th November 2019, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel H

My thinking was more of something that was a permanent component part of the tool, used to protect the soft wood while in use, rather than a removable tool protection device.
I'm sure that someone will recognise it.
Being the owner of several mystery objects acquired over the years, I'd be interested to know.

I see your point Mel but, i am reluctant to digest that this is a non weapon implement. Not so much a question of common sense but, i would be frustrated to realize that i acquired something i wasn't expecting ... at all.
If ever someone pops up and shows us he is famiiar with this thing as not being a scabbard frame and, once you fancy odd obects, you can have it ... and i mean it.

.

thinreadline · 7th November 2019, 08:57 PM

I dont think this is the frame of a recently made re enactment scabbard ... it is too complex in its structure ... modern made scabbards of this type are much more simplistic . I think this is old ... however knowing where it was found would be the key of course . Iron does not last long except in certain environments.

Kmaddock · 7th November 2019, 09:17 PM

Hi
I have no image re sizer on my device so no images available
If you google

Smatchet fighting knife FS

this shape scabbard would be a good match

It would also match the
welsh fusiliers knife
made in WWI sorry no images of either but search the above 2 and you should see what I mean size would be wrong but shape would match

Regards

Ken

fernando · 8th November 2019, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

I dont think this is the frame of a recently made re enactment scabbard ... it is too complex in its structure ... modern made scabbards of this type are much more simplistic . I think this is old ... however knowing where it was found would be the key of course . Iron does not last long except in certain environments.

That is rather comforting ... thank you.
I was told the area that it came from (post #7); a small penisula once occupied by the Romans until the 6th century. Whether it was excavated from under the ground or found at the open air, is something i wonder. But i am almost certain that it was unearthed. However i am not afirming that there is a link between this piece and the Roman occupation.

.

fernando · 8th November 2019, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

...If you google
Smatchet fighting knife FS
this shape scabbard would be a good match
It would also match the
welsh fusiliers knife
made in WWI sorry no images of either but search the above 2 and you should see what I mean size would be wrong but shape would match...

Thank you for the hint, Ken ... but i don't think so; neither the shape, nor the size ... or the material, etc.

Lee · 8th November 2019, 05:05 PM

I think the features are just too close for this not to be the frame of a scabbard for a Celtic / Roman knife of the style shown above. Sometimes we do see Celtic iron artifacts with provenance of good repute that are in amazing shape for being two millennia old, so I'll not casually dismiss this as impossible. I was once led to a nice Celtic long sword with a sheet iron sheath by a thread in another forum ridiculing it an impossible survival. However, in these days of forgeries of just about anything collectible, suspicion of more recent work is also hard to confidently dismiss.

fernando · 8th November 2019, 05:26 PM

Well ... that is re-encouraging, Lee. Thank you for your precious entry

.

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 05:47 PM

What size is it?

Welsh trench sword scabbard doesn't have those side mounts, it's wood core wrapped cris-cross in OD canvass and has a frog suspension. It's essentially a large romanesque short sword not a knife. It's similar to a giant smatchet, about twice the size.

fernando · 8th November 2019, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

What size is it?

Welsh trench sword scabbard doesn't have those side mounts, it's wood core wrapped cris-cross in OD canvass and has a frog suspension. It's essentially a large romanesque short sword not a knife. It's similar to a giant smatchet, about twice the size.

Wayne, i have already been through that with Ken (post #14). It is completely out of question

.
Size and weight in my post #4.

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 06:01 PM

ah, missed that, scrolled too fast past it. Welsh trench knife blade is 45 cm., bit too long.

6th November 2019, 07:23 PM	#9
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	My thinking was more of something that was a permanent component part of the tool, used to protect the soft wood while in use, rather than a removable tool protection device. I'm sure that someone will recognise it. Being the owner of several mystery objects acquired over the years, I'd be interested to know. Last edited by Mel H; 7th November 2019 at 12:07 AM.

8th November 2019, 05:47 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	What size is it? Welsh trench sword scabbard doesn't have those side mounts, it's wood core wrapped cris-cross in OD canvass and has a frog suspension. It's essentially a large romanesque short sword not a knife. It's similar to a giant smatchet, about twice the size. Attached Images

3rd November 2019, 05:50 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	An iron sheath ... or a frame of it, for comments I would love to know what you guys think of this one. Assuming it all starts by its age, what would you say; old, very old, recent, very recent... The first two pictures show how it was before i gave it some (hopefuly) non invasive cleaning with penetrating oil and a super soft brass brush. Rust came off in lose particles, but also in the form of some entire layers from its interior; only one bit is left. I don't know what to think of that upper rivet, that shines white. The spherical (ball) point is secured with a rivet (nail), not just attached by pressure. Those two (sort of) hooks would be for securing the body plates ... Your comments ill be so much welcome . , Attached Images

3rd November 2019, 08:52 PM	#2
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	A protective end from a wood tool or implement?

4th November 2019, 01:45 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It looks like the iron binding on a later Roman Pugio scabbard. As for what it actually is........

4th November 2019, 12:26 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your kind comments, Gentlemen. Mel, i would be surprised if this were indeed a tool protection device, with its hanging loops and other design details. David, that was my own initial atempt at identify this thing. Let me show you what has influenced my thoughts. Now, my doubts on its age and authencity remain unvanished. That shining rivet kills me . Any further comments ? . Attached Images

4th November 2019, 05:24 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Historical reenactments have been ongoing for the last 40 years or more, some of our kit is now well aged enough to be passed off as original. Just a thought.

5th November 2019, 03:37 AM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Any context to where it was found and when? i would say not more than a century old. The ball on the end could be a pivot point. It's not a weapon or part of one.

5th November 2019, 12:02 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ho ... well; one century is better than half one. And in such case prior to re-enacting habits ... i guess ? Also assuming this sheath was once complete, with its side plates made in a degradable material, like wood, it would be difficult that not a splinter was left, or stuck to the rust, after only a few decades ... my guess. It was purportedly found in the Portuguese upper Southwest coast. When i mention the ball in the end being secured with a 'nail', was just to describe the fixation technique. Actually when i check it again, i can see a pin going through the whole thing; pointing out in both sides Here are pictures taken before i brought it. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 5th November 2019 at 01:01 PM.

6th November 2019, 12:42 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Any further thoughts, Gentlemen ? ...

7th November 2019, 08:57 PM	#11
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	I dont think this is the frame of a recently made re enactment scabbard ... it is too complex in its structure ... modern made scabbards of this type are much more simplistic . I think this is old ... however knowing where it was found would be the key of course . Iron does not last long except in certain environments.

7th November 2019, 09:17 PM	#12
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi I have no image re sizer on my device so no images available If you google Smatchet fighting knife FS this shape scabbard would be a good match It would also match the welsh fusiliers knife made in WWI sorry no images of either but search the above 2 and you should see what I mean size would be wrong but shape would match Regards Ken

8th November 2019, 05:05 PM	#15
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	I think the features are just too close for this not to be the frame of a scabbard for a Celtic / Roman knife of the style shown above. Sometimes we do see Celtic iron artifacts with provenance of good repute that are in amazing shape for being two millennia old, so I'll not casually dismiss this as impossible. I was once led to a nice Celtic long sword with a sheet iron sheath by a thread in another forum ridiculing it an impossible survival. However, in these days of forgeries of just about anything collectible, suspicion of more recent work is also hard to confidently dismiss.

8th November 2019, 05:26 PM	#16
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well ... that is re-encouraging, Lee. Thank you for your precious entry .

8th November 2019, 06:01 PM	#19
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	ah, missed that, scrolled too fast past it. Welsh trench knife blade is 45 cm., bit too long.