Jitte, Edo period

[kronckew]

bought this japanese police weapon/badge of office yesterday, bit more expensive than the modern chrome plated 'martial arts' ones with red tassles. grip looks like it is wrapped in rattan. looks more traditional anyway. it'll compliment my folded steel katana.

in the mid 1980's i stopped in japan for two weeks on my annual leave from KSA and bought a traditionally made katana made by one of the two then living national treasures. had to get a special export license. got it the day before i had to leave. probably my most expensive ever sword purchases & the start of my current collection.

anyway, it's on it's way from chiba, japan.

Length : 39.5 cm ( 15.6" )

Weight : 460 g (1 lb)

Material : Iron

[estcrh]

That weapon is actually a jutte, despite what many people think, a jitte is an entirely different weapon. Here is a karakuri jitte (hand held spear with a swiveling guard).

[kronckew]

interesting - the japanese vendor covered his bases by calling it a "Jutte Jitte Japanese traditional weapon 15.6 in. Black Edo police". must have lost something in the transliteration i figured they were synonyms.

anyway, just jutte from now on...

love the swing guard and the pin that forms another at 90 degrees on the jitte. begs the question tho, why a short heavy spear with a big guard rather than a tanto or wakizashi? is it the guard those really lack? a tsuba is not much hand protection. then that begs the question why do waks and katana/tanto/tachi not have decent guards? they obviously had seen spanish/portugese rapiers for centuries. even a more primitive extended 'd' guard like they finally used in the 20th C. would be better & still allow two handed use. ah, well, they had many weapons weird and wonderful for the western collector.

ah, well. now i'll keep my eyes peeled for a kabutowari/hachiwari that doesn't break my bank.

[Timo Nieminen]

The weapon you have (jitte/jutte) is 十手, "ten hands", which can be read as "power of ten hands weapon". In hiragana, じって, which has Hepburn romanisation "jitte". "Jitte" is the correct romanisation of the Japanese name of the weapon.

The usual romanisation of 十, "ten", is "ju", and the usual romanisation of 手, "hand", is "te" (as in "kara-te"), so we find "jutte", though this doesn't reflect the Japanese hiragana writing or the Japanese pronunciation. It could be argued that "jutte" is the correct (or incorrect) English name for the weapon.

The spear-point jitte shown above is, according to Serge Mol, "Classical Weaponry of Japan", 實手, or "real hand"/"true hand" (or "fruit hand"). I haven't seen this elsewhere, and as far as I can tell, 實 (or the equivalent 実) doesn't have a romanisation of "ji" or "ju". For romanisations of these, see:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%AF%A6#Japanese
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%AE%9F#Japanese

Mol uses "jutte" for the truncheon to distinguish between the two weapons, akin to "kris" and "keris" being used to distinguish between Philippine and Indonesian versions.

Is either jutte or jitte given in the OED?

(Compare "jujutsu", "jujitsu", "jiujitsu" as variant romanisations of the same word.)

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by kronckew

a tsuba is not much hand protection. then that begs the question why do waks and katana/tanto/tachi not have decent guards? they obviously had seen spanish/portugese rapiers for centuries. even a more primitive extended 'd' guard like they finally used in the 20th C. would be better & still allow two handed use. ah, well, they had many weapons weird and wonderful for the western collector. .

More of a guard than the typical shashka, Philippine sword, dha, stiletto, kukri, and in some ways, better than a Medieval European cruciform sword. Sometimes "better" isn't better. (But sometimes it is; I should post a photo of interesting battle damage on a kukri.)

[kronckew]

more info from my vendor in japan: (confirming timo's post above)

A jitte (十手, literally "ten hands") is a specialized weapon that was used by police in Edo period Japan.

It is also spelled jutte.

In Edo period Japan the jitte was a substitute for a badge and represented someone on official business and was carried by all levels of police officers.

You can see it in Japanese historical play.

interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2oJVgCsn7M

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

The weapon you have (jitte/jutte) is 十手, "ten hands", which can be read as "power of ten hands weapon". In hiragana, じって, which has Hepburn romanisation "jitte". "Jitte" is the correct romanisation of the Japanese name of the weapon.

The usual romanisation of 十, "ten", is "ju", and the usual romanisation of 手, "hand", is "te" (as in "kara-te"), so we find "jutte", though this doesn't reflect the Japanese hiragana writing or the Japanese pronunciation. It could be argued that "jutte" is the correct (or incorrect) English name for the weapon.

The spear-point jitte shown above is, according to Serge Mol, "Classical Weaponry of Japan", 實手, or "real hand"/"true hand" (or "fruit hand"). I haven't seen this elsewhere, and as far as I can tell, 實 (or the equivalent 実) doesn't have a romanisation of "ji" or "ju". For romanisations of these, see:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%AF%A6#Japanese
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%AE%9F#Japanese

Mol uses "jutte" for the truncheon to distinguish between the two weapons, akin to "kris" and "keris" being used to distinguish between Philippine and Indonesian versions.

Is either jutte or jitte given in the OED?

(Compare "jujutsu", "jujitsu", "jiujitsu" as variant romanisations of the same word.)

Timo, you can not have two weapons with the same name, since the jitte was a secret weapon it is not well known, many people try to use what they consider the correct Japanese term but if they do not know about the two very different weapons how can they apply the correct name?

Why a jutte is called "jutte" and not "jitte". Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai By Don Cunningham. Page 72.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kronckew

more info from my vendor in japan: (confirming timo's post above)



interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2oJVgCsn7M

Kronckew, the quote you posted came from Wikipedia, the article about Jutte was recently changed to "Jitte" by some well meaning editors that had no knowledge of Japanese weapons, they were knowledgable about Japanese and ignored the correct Western use of the terms "jutte" and "Jitte". The article most probably will eventually be renamed to "Jutte".

Jutte: Japanese Power of Ten Hands Weapon, George Kirby (Author), Mike Lee (Author), 1987. The study of the use of the jutte weapon is a logical extension of the jujitsu student's training, as that knowledge can be applied to a variety of weapons and thereby enhance that weapon's capabilities. The jutte is weapon ideally suited to the study of extending the art of jujitsu. Fully illustrated with sequential photos.

[estcrh]

From Serge Mol, "Classical Weaponry of Japan".

[estcrh]

Here is a rare weapon, it is actually part jutte and part jitte.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Timo, you can not have two weapons with the same name,

There are many examples of the same name being used for different weapons. Apart from broad generic terms like "sword", "spear", "dao", we have "kris" being used for very different Indonesian and Philippine weapons, "claymore" for Scottish basket hilts and two-handed swords, "tuck" for cut-and-thrust swords and for two-handed spike-swords, and more. Yes, it can be inconvenient for unambiguous labelling, but that's the way that language works. There are many non-weapon examples, too.

But if two weapons have the same pronunciation but different characters, they don't have the same names. Their names are homophones. However, your quote from Cunningham suggests that the name of Mol's "jitte" was used for the "jutte/jitte", and the name/kanji changed from one homophone to another, which would make it two names (both homophones) used for the same weapon, with one of the names also used for a different weapon (Mol's "jitte").

Originally Posted by estcrh

many people try to use what they consider the correct Japanese term but if they do not know about the two very different weapons how can they apply the correct name?

What is without doubt is that the modern Japanese name of the "jitte/jutte" is 十手 in kanji, じって in hiragana, and "jitte" romanised. "Jitte" is the correct Japanese name.

As I said, "jutte" is a possible candidate for an English name for the weapon. But so is "jitte", and while there might be reasonable grounds for saying that "jutte" is correct, or even better, as an English name, there are no reasonable grounds for saying that "jitte" is wrong.

I usually use "jutte" as the English name, or note the use of both "jutte" and "jitte" for the weapon. I think "jutte" is more common.

(Stone gives "jit-te" and "jittei".)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

As I said, "jutte" is a possible candidate for an English name for the weapon. But so is "jitte", and while there might be reasonable grounds for saying that "jutte" is correct, or even better, as an English name, there are no reasonable grounds for saying that "jitte" is wrong.

I usually use "jutte" as the English name, or note the use of both "jutte" and "jitte" for the weapon. I think "jutte" is more common.

(Stone gives "jit-te" and "jittei".)

Timo, the only name for the hand held spear is jitte, that leaves jutte for the truncheon, the only people that call the truncheon a jitte are not aware that there is a hand held spear called a jitte. What the correct pronounciation in Japanese is does not matter here in the West, and even Japanese dealers and collectors caqn not agree on the correct Japanese term.

Stone was not aware of the jitte so of course he may have used an older term for the jutte, again people who are not aware of the jitte will not understand the correct WESTERN terms, which is what we are discussing. It makes absolutely no sense to say that the truncheon is both a jitte and jutte, but of course you are free to call them whatever you want.

[kronckew]

i'll let you two decide.

reversing an arguement, i'd think if the police truncheon thingy is much more common than the folding guard spear thingy, it's transliteration as jitte should prevail & we should call the spear thingy something else, ie. yarijitte. as mentioned we gaijin can call it whatever we decide. like a spanish falcata which was never called that by the contemporary spanish.

just another oint in the flyment, there is a katae kata called 'jitte' using the same japanes characters, ten hands. again because it teaches you to be as effective as ten.

in fact there seems to be no reason not to call all three jitte in japan.

it's a bit like mc donalds suing the scottish undertakers for using the name. i'm unl;ikely to go into the latter and ask for a hamburger. and if i say i'm off to mc donalds for lunch, there is no ambiguity (unless of course i am a goul )

the japanese book on the subject referenced in the video link i posted above seems to also be ambivilalent, and references both weapons as well as intermediary ones like the one above, ones without hooks and ones with many hooks. i's buy the book, but i don't read (or speak) japanese.

thanks to all for a most interesting discussion. どうもありがとうございました.

[Timo Nieminen]

I think that if the truncheon were newly discovered by the English-speaking world, "jitte" would be the best choice for its English name. However, "jutte" is already out there, and common. We could bypass the question and just write "十手".

(Not that using Chinese characters frees us from ambiguity. One interesting and annoying ambiguity is that the same character is used for catapult and cannon. Makes it hard to tell which is used in early sources. Even descriptions of explosions doesn't help, since catapults were used to throw gunpowder bombs.)

Of course, if I was the One Who Decides Correct Usage, I could pick one and decree it to be the One True Name for the truncheon. But since I'm not in that position of authority, I'll just have to let the community decide.

My jutte/jitte, except for some overtly modern martial arts ones, are shown here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16220

[kronckew]

じって and 十手 both google translate into english as 'truncheon'. both have the transliteration of 'jitte' under the two japanese forms.

i suggest we need a japanese citizen to decide what we are to call something from their history...prefereably a weapons collector/dealer. i will ask mine.

edited:
i just did (he must be up late).

...
We call both Jitte and Jutte.
You can see wiki in detail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitte
Thank you,
Tachi

i'll ask what he calls the yarijitte.

[kronckew]

aha! i should read tachi's ref. first:

it's a karakuri jitte


edited:
tachi says:

It is kind of Jitte or Jutte.
We call Marohoshi

[kronckew]

just added a kabutowari jitte/jutte to the japanese part of my collection, on it's way from japan.

supposedly showa period, 1926–1989 - prbably latter part.

roughly 25 in. LOA, 'blade/hook' about 14.5 in. in mounts and saya. 645grams in saya. metal fittings look untarnished - gold/gold plated?