The change of an Indian weapon

Jens Nordlunde · 9th March 2006, 04:45 PM

The picture is from RobertElgood’s book, Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 83 pict. 8.13. ‘Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini Cave Temple. Mid-seventh century’.

Most of the blade looks like a kukri, but the start of the blade and the pommel looks like an adya katti. The temple is situated about 40 miles south of Chennai (Madras) at a place called Mamallapuram, an important seaport known from the 2nd century.

This means that the stone sculpture, is situated at the south east coast in India, but the adya katti is know from the Indian south west coast, confined to a rather small area, and the kukri is of course the famous weapon from Nepal.

It seems as if the weapon has travelled from the east coast to the west coast and Nepal, only changing little on the way, but without leaving any trace on the way, at least not what I am aware of.

Valjhun · 9th March 2006, 04:53 PM

Jens,

It is only my deduction, but....I guess that we are looking to a predecessor of both the kukri and adja katti, Nice find.

Lew · 9th March 2006, 05:17 PM

Looks like a Greek kopis to me

Lew

not2sharp · 9th March 2006, 06:46 PM

How far does the record on khukuris go? My impression was that the khukuri was a relatively recent development. This may also be a form a yataghan. Are yataghans known to occur in the area?

n2s

RomaRana · 9th March 2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Looks like a Greek kopis to me

Lew

Or an Egyptian kopesh

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 12:57 AM

Interesting observations on these forward angled blade weapons, many of which of course do descend from the Greek kopis in varying degree, including the yataghan which developed in Turkish and Balkan regions.
I think Jens comment on the associations with these ancient weapons to the kukri and ayda katti are very well placed. It is fascinating to examine the diffusion of these weapon forms throughout the Indian subcontinent, and the influences of the varying cultures being combined.

The kukri, as noted developing from these early weapons depicted iconographically in India as early as the beginning of the 7th c. , seems to have developed in Nepal sometime in the early 1600's. John Powell, who is by far the ultimate authority on the kukri ( and we are all hopeful of his book being published one day!!

has noted the earliest known Nepalese kukri to be held in the arsenal museum in Katmandhu. This example is said to have been owned by Raja Drabya Shah, King of Gorkha, c.1627.
John notes further that the blade design was anciently used by the Egyptians as the khopesh, later by the Greeks as the kopis, and ultimately diffusing to the Macedonians (machiara) and the Romans and in Spain as the 'falcata'.

Best regards,
Jim

B.I · 10th March 2006, 07:38 PM

hi jens,
robert only showed a part of the whole sculpture. attached is the complete piece, with some other similarly armed figures. sorry for the poor quality, its night and i have to photograph indoors. as you say, its a very interesting piece of iconography that leads to many more questions.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th March 2006, 03:27 PM

Thanks for the answers. What surprises me is, that the kukri appears in Nepal relatively late, but must have disappeared from SE India centuries before, or we would have seen weapon of this type from the area. I don’t know for how long time they have been using the adya katti on the west coast, so this is another thing to dig into, although I have a feeling that it may have been used there for a long time.

The pictures BI is showing are very interesting, although I could have hoped for a better quality – but better this quality than no pictures at all

.
It is clear to see on the pictures, that the pommels, and the beginning of the blades on the knives shown are like on an adya katti, and not like on a kukri, but the rest of the blade looks very much like the blade of a kukri.

9th March 2006, 04:45 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,717	The change of an Indian weapon The picture is from RobertElgood’s book, Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 83 pict. 8.13. ‘Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini Cave Temple. Mid-seventh century’. Most of the blade looks like a kukri, but the start of the blade and the pommel looks like an adya katti. The temple is situated about 40 miles south of Chennai (Madras) at a place called Mamallapuram, an important seaport known from the 2nd century. This means that the stone sculpture, is situated at the south east coast in India, but the adya katti is know from the Indian south west coast, confined to a rather small area, and the kukri is of course the famous weapon from Nepal. It seems as if the weapon has travelled from the east coast to the west coast and Nepal, only changing little on the way, but without leaving any trace on the way, at least not what I am aware of. Attached Images

10th March 2006, 07:38 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, robert only showed a part of the whole sculpture. attached is the complete piece, with some other similarly armed figures. sorry for the poor quality, its night and i have to photograph indoors. as you say, its a very interesting piece of iconography that leads to many more questions. Attached Images

11th March 2006, 03:27 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,717	Thanks for the answers. What surprises me is, that the kukri appears in Nepal relatively late, but must have disappeared from SE India centuries before, or we would have seen weapon of this type from the area. I don’t know for how long time they have been using the adya katti on the west coast, so this is another thing to dig into, although I have a feeling that it may have been used there for a long time. The pictures BI is showing are very interesting, although I could have hoped for a better quality – but better this quality than no pictures at all. It is clear to see on the pictures, that the pommels, and the beginning of the blades on the knives shown are like on an adya katti, and not like on a kukri, but the rest of the blade looks very much like the blade of a kukri.

9th March 2006, 04:53 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Jens, It is only my deduction, but....I guess that we are looking to a predecessor of both the kukri and adja katti, Nice find.

9th March 2006, 05:17 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Looks like a Greek kopis to me Lew

9th March 2006, 06:46 PM	#4
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	How far does the record on khukuris go? My impression was that the khukuri was a relatively recent development. This may also be a form a yataghan. Are yataghans known to occur in the area? n2s

10th March 2006, 12:57 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,831	Interesting observations on these forward angled blade weapons, many of which of course do descend from the Greek kopis in varying degree, including the yataghan which developed in Turkish and Balkan regions. I think Jens comment on the associations with these ancient weapons to the kukri and ayda katti are very well placed. It is fascinating to examine the diffusion of these weapon forms throughout the Indian subcontinent, and the influences of the varying cultures being combined. The kukri, as noted developing from these early weapons depicted iconographically in India as early as the beginning of the 7th c. , seems to have developed in Nepal sometime in the early 1600's. John Powell, who is by far the ultimate authority on the kukri ( and we are all hopeful of his book being published one day!! has noted the earliest known Nepalese kukri to be held in the arsenal museum in Katmandhu. This example is said to have been owned by Raja Drabya Shah, King of Gorkha, c.1627. John notes further that the blade design was anciently used by the Egyptians as the khopesh, later by the Greeks as the kopis, and ultimately diffusing to the Macedonians (machiara) and the Romans and in Spain as the 'falcata'. Best regards, Jim