Bali keris pamor identification

SidJ · 23rd June 2022, 06:07 PM

Hello
Please could you help with identifying the pamor on this keris? I was told it is Kupu Tarung(Fighting Butterflies). However in Catalogue 82 of Alan Maisey I think I can see a similar pamor on Keris 4 called Pamor Santa/Bendo Segodo. Is mine also a Pamor Santa/Bendo Segodo then?
Also I would be grateful for your thoughts on the likely age and the quality of this keris. I was told it is Mataram era. Blade length is 44 cm.
Best wishes
Sid

SidJ · 23rd June 2022, 06:30 PM

attached are the pics from Cat. 82 showing a keris with pamor Santa for comparison.

Marcokeris · 23rd June 2022, 07:04 PM

kupu tarung

David · 23rd June 2022, 07:35 PM

Sid, your photos from Alan's catalog don't seem to have attached, though i am uncertain how you downloaded photos from that page since i think there is a lock on that and i am also concerned that it may not be appropriate to show them here anyway unless, of course, you were the buyer of that keris. So maybe that is for the best.

For now those photos are still up so anyone who wants to compare can go to Alan's website to see them.
I do see similarities between these pamors though so this one may have been created with a similar method, though i don't think the Javanese name would apply. Likewise i am also hesitant to categorize a Bali/Lombok by era with Mataram, which as you know, is an Islamic Javanese sultanate.
I am not, however, convinced that this keris is as old as the Mataram period or even a Balinese blade. Various elements of this blade do not seem quite Balinese to me. The sogokan, for one, is poorly cut and shallow. The pamor lines do not look like Balinese execution as they seem to be to spread and look "cloudy". Even the iron itself does not look like what i expect to see on Bali keris, though the colour in you photos could be more due to the photography than the blade itself. And it certainly does not have the usual Balinese polished surface (which could point to Lombok, i suppose). Also, though there might be exceptions, we rarely find pamor on the gonjo of old Balinese blades. But the blade itself does seem to show some age. So over all this one is a bit of a mystery to me regarding origin. Regarding quality, if this is truly a Balinese example i would place lower, rather than high on the quality scale.

Gustav · 23rd June 2022, 08:07 PM

Gentlemen,
we are discussing a Keris currently for sale in Swap.

David · 23rd June 2022, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Gentlemen,
we are discussing a Keris currently for sale in Swap.

Thanks Gustav. I am currently laid up with an awful cold (tested negative for Covid, but still pretty nasty), so my head is a bit foggy. I thought i had seen this keris before.
Sid, please review the forum rules. We cannot be discussing keris that are up for sell. It's just not ethical. This thread will be locked until this keris is sold or you withdraw it's sale from all venues. This is a first warning. In the future there will be timeout penalties for violations.

David · 24th June 2022, 06:00 PM

This keris is no longer being offered for sale, so please continue the conversation. Thanks!

23rd June 2022, 06:07 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Bali keris pamor identification Hello Please could you help with identifying the pamor on this keris? I was told it is Kupu Tarung(Fighting Butterflies). However in Catalogue 82 of Alan Maisey I think I can see a similar pamor on Keris 4 called Pamor Santa/Bendo Segodo. Is mine also a Pamor Santa/Bendo Segodo then? Also I would be grateful for your thoughts on the likely age and the quality of this keris. I was told it is Mataram era. Blade length is 44 cm. Best wishes Sid Attached Images

23rd June 2022, 07:04 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	kupu tarung Last edited by Marcokeris; 23rd June 2022 at 07:48 PM.

23rd June 2022, 06:30 PM	#2
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	attached are the pics from Cat. 82 showing a keris with pamor Santa for comparison.

23rd June 2022, 07:35 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Sid, your photos from Alan's catalog don't seem to have attached, though i am uncertain how you downloaded photos from that page since i think there is a lock on that and i am also concerned that it may not be appropriate to show them here anyway unless, of course, you were the buyer of that keris. So maybe that is for the best. For now those photos are still up so anyone who wants to compare can go to Alan's website to see them. I do see similarities between these pamors though so this one may have been created with a similar method, though i don't think the Javanese name would apply. Likewise i am also hesitant to categorize a Bali/Lombok by era with Mataram, which as you know, is an Islamic Javanese sultanate. I am not, however, convinced that this keris is as old as the Mataram period or even a Balinese blade. Various elements of this blade do not seem quite Balinese to me. The sogokan, for one, is poorly cut and shallow. The pamor lines do not look like Balinese execution as they seem to be to spread and look "cloudy". Even the iron itself does not look like what i expect to see on Bali keris, though the colour in you photos could be more due to the photography than the blade itself. And it certainly does not have the usual Balinese polished surface (which could point to Lombok, i suppose). Also, though there might be exceptions, we rarely find pamor on the gonjo of old Balinese blades. But the blade itself does seem to show some age. So over all this one is a bit of a mystery to me regarding origin. Regarding quality, if this is truly a Balinese example i would place lower, rather than high on the quality scale.

23rd June 2022, 08:07 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Gentlemen, we are discussing a Keris currently for sale in Swap.

24th June 2022, 06:00 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	This keris is no longer being offered for sale, so please continue the conversation. Thanks!