iron spear indian ?

weapons 27 · 21st October 2013, 05:52 PM

It measures 45 cm long,

I think what would be Indian

can you give me your opinion

weapons 27 · 21st October 2013, 05:54 PM

Once cleaned

Runjeet Singh · 21st October 2013, 11:01 PM

An interesting item, and well made, but I don't think Indian, I think African. A wild guess would be Congo - but I'm sure there are others who could be more exact.

I can see why you would say Indian though!

Regards,
Runjeet

VANDOO · 22nd October 2013, 05:44 AM

THE DESIGN ON THE BLADE STRIKES ME AS AFRICAN ALSO PERHAPS A PROCESSIONAL SPEAR HEAD FOR A STANDARD BEARING POLE. THE WORKMANSHIP IS DIFFERENT THAN I USUALLY ASSOCIATE WITH CONGO SO MAYBE ETHIOPIA OR HAUSA TRIBE FROM NIGERIA OR MOORISH. JUST MY BEST GUESSES I AM SURE THOSE MEMBERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE IN THE FIELD WILL BE ABLE TO GIVE BETTER INFORMATION. WHATEVER IT IS ITS VERY WELL MADE AND I LIKE IT.

weapons 27 · 22nd October 2013, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

An interesting item, and well made, but I don't think Indian, I think African. A wild guess would be Congo - but I'm sure there are others who could be more exact.

I can see why you would say Indian though!

Regards,
Runjeet

hi runjeet
It is the job of the socket which makes me say this, I've never seen African spear with a socket if worked and rencorced, I attached a picture with some Indian Sockets photos..I'm wrong can be!

Pieje · 22nd October 2013, 08:46 AM

Never seen such type from Congo.

thinreadline · 22nd October 2013, 08:54 AM

The blade decoration certainly looks more African than Indian.

Runjeet Singh · 22nd October 2013, 10:28 AM

I agree that the socket looks Indian (that's why I could understand why you thought Indian) but the decoration and needle point makes me think African - it seems our fellow forum members agree - now it's just a case of somebody identifying where in Africa!!

Regards,
Runjeet

Iain · 22nd October 2013, 10:37 AM

Wild stab in the dark says Ethiopian. I've seen other double and triple headed spears from that general area.

colin henshaw · 22nd October 2013, 10:54 AM

I vote for Sierra Leone - 19th century.

thinreadline · 22nd October 2013, 12:13 PM

Here are some pics of a spearhead with similar characteristics to the central head in question ..... not very clear but note similar blade decoration . I have always taken this spear head to be African , though do not not which region.

Richard G · 24th October 2013, 01:33 PM

This thread might help.
Regards
Richard
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bagirmi

Iain · 24th October 2013, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

This thread might help.
Regards
Richard
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bagirmi

Yep! That particular double headed example has left my collection but that's the one that had me thinking down Ethiopian lines...

colin henshaw · 25th October 2013, 09:28 AM

From W O Oldman "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens" 1907 - listed as "Mendiland, used by Chief Lobo"

weapons 27 · 25th October 2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

From W O Oldman "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens" 1907 - listed as "Mendiland, used by Chief Lobo"

Thank you colin for your research...
so it is sierra leone

Iain · 25th October 2013, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

From W O Oldman "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens" 1907 - listed as "Mendiland, used by Chief Lobo"

Great stuff Colin! Wonderful to have a basis when seeing this kind of blade and shaft design now.

I'm always amazed on the forum how someone seems to recognize almost anything!

Jim McDougall · 25th October 2013, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Great stuff Colin! Wonderful to have a basis when seeing this kind of blade and shaft design now.

I'm always amazed on the forum how someone seems to recognize almost anything!

Totally agree Iain!!!
It is fascinating to see how closely paralleled Indian and African arms can often be, and we well know a good number of these such as the haladie used in Sudan, deriving from Rajasthan origins and via Syria to N. Africa.

My first inclination on this spearhead would have been S. India due to the spaced collars on it, but in seeing the geometric linear decoration would have gone directly to Africa.

That particular Oldman reference, one precursor to Stones venerable work, has of course its own flaws in degree, despite being overall quite reliable.
I recall one item shown as a Tibetan short sword used as a reference to one same I acquired many years ago, and claimed from the British expedition there c. 1903? I later discovered it was in fact a Dahomean hwi and an identical example documented and provenanced in a Belgian museum from c. 1850.

colin henshaw · 27th October 2013, 04:40 PM

These spears seem a bit atypical for African weapons, in fact they remind me more of European polearms, such as the "Langue de Boeuf"...

Iain · 27th October 2013, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

These spears seem a bit atypical for African weapons, in fact they remind me more of European polearms, such as the "Langue de Boeuf"...

Given the Portuguese trading post and fort established on the coast since 1495 that seems quite plausible.

Similar perhaps to the complex hilt swords seen in coastal Congo from the same influences.

colin henshaw · 28th October 2013, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Given the Portuguese trading post and fort established on the coast since 1495 that seems quite plausible.

Similar perhaps to the complex hilt swords seen in coastal Congo from the same influences.

Yes, good point Iain. Sometimes we tend to forget how early these contacts were made, on the coastal areas at least. I wonder if any others have views on this interesting topic of European influence on West African traditional weapons, or examples to post ?

Edster · 28th October 2013, 06:30 PM

Very nice spear! I have no idea where it may be from. However, an interesting and perhaps diagnostic feature is that the smaller outer blades appear to be a separate piece that slides over the central blade. This was probably done when red hot and the hole contracted and held it in place on the central blade as it cooled. Is that unique or a feature of other spears? None of the other examples shown seem to share it.

Just a thought,
Ed

21st October 2013, 05:52 PM	#1
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	iron spear indian ? It measures 45 cm long, I think what would be Indian can you give me your opinion Attached Images

21st October 2013, 05:54 PM	#2
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	Once cleaned Attached Images

22nd October 2013, 12:13 PM	#11
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Here are some pics of a spearhead with similar characteristics to the central head in question ..... not very clear but note similar blade decoration . I have always taken this spear head to be African , though do not not which region. Attached Images

25th October 2013, 09:28 AM	#14
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	From W O Oldman "Illustrated Catalogue of Ethnographical Specimens" 1907 - listed as "Mendiland, used by Chief Lobo" Attached Images

27th October 2013, 04:40 PM	#18
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	These spears seem a bit atypical for African weapons, in fact they remind me more of European polearms, such as the "Langue de Boeuf"... Attached Images

21st October 2013, 11:01 PM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	An interesting item, and well made, but I don't think Indian, I think African. A wild guess would be Congo - but I'm sure there are others who could be more exact. I can see why you would say Indian though! Regards, Runjeet

22nd October 2013, 05:44 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE DESIGN ON THE BLADE STRIKES ME AS AFRICAN ALSO PERHAPS A PROCESSIONAL SPEAR HEAD FOR A STANDARD BEARING POLE. THE WORKMANSHIP IS DIFFERENT THAN I USUALLY ASSOCIATE WITH CONGO SO MAYBE ETHIOPIA OR HAUSA TRIBE FROM NIGERIA OR MOORISH. JUST MY BEST GUESSES I AM SURE THOSE MEMBERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE IN THE FIELD WILL BE ABLE TO GIVE BETTER INFORMATION. WHATEVER IT IS ITS VERY WELL MADE AND I LIKE IT.

22nd October 2013, 08:46 AM	#6
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	Never seen such type from Congo.

22nd October 2013, 08:54 AM	#7
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	The blade decoration certainly looks more African than Indian.

22nd October 2013, 10:28 AM	#8
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	I agree that the socket looks Indian (that's why I could understand why you thought Indian) but the decoration and needle point makes me think African - it seems our fellow forum members agree - now it's just a case of somebody identifying where in Africa!! Regards, Runjeet

22nd October 2013, 10:37 AM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Wild stab in the dark says Ethiopian. I've seen other double and triple headed spears from that general area.

22nd October 2013, 10:54 AM	#10
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	I vote for Sierra Leone - 19th century.

24th October 2013, 01:33 PM	#12
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	This thread might help. Regards Richard http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bagirmi

28th October 2013, 06:30 PM	#21
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Very nice spear! I have no idea where it may be from. However, an interesting and perhaps diagnostic feature is that the smaller outer blades appear to be a separate piece that slides over the central blade. This was probably done when red hot and the hole contracted and held it in place on the central blade as it cooled. Is that unique or a feature of other spears? None of the other examples shown seem to share it. Just a thought, Ed