for discussion - ancient Sepang ?

[satsujinken]

Hi

I made this thread for discussion about this keris. Well to be honest, I just read Alan's site and read about relief in ancient temples in Indonesia

here's another keris with mendak fused to the blade, it is said that this type of keris is very old. Kabudhan / Singosari era

but as we all know, we have to treat all stories from the owner with a pinch of salt

this one is said to be found in river deposit, I notice the similarities with keris in the relief pictured in Alan's site, just this one is more slender. The ancient keris looked symmetrical in appearance and kinda like Sepang dhapur like this one

any comments ?

and as usual, enjoy ...

[A. G. Maisey]

Round pesi Donny?

[Jean]

Same sort of stuff as the previous ones? Look at the greneng.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Look at the whole thing Jean.

I'm amazed --- but please don't ask me why.

[mariusgmioc]

Are we supposed to believe this is "ancient?"

Are you testing us or what?

I do not know almost anything about kerises, but I am pretty sure this is a FAKE antiquated piece.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Are we supposed to believe this is "ancient?"

Are you testing us or what?

I do not know almost anything about kerises, but I am pretty sure this is a FAKE antiquated piece.

PS: This is from the same cheater like the previous one. The same manner of taking photos, the same "escavated" condition of the kerises and... the same leaves in the background.

[David]

So, just a thought here, not an accusation.
Is it wise for us as experienced collectors to pinpoint exactly what gives away a fake so that the forgers can learn from their mistakes and then create better fakes that are harder to judge?
I agree with Alan here. Please don't ask me why.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

So, just a thought here, not an accusation.
Is it wise for us as experienced collectors to pinpoint exactly what gives away a fake so that the forgers can learn from their mistakes and then create better fakes that are harder to judge?
I agree with Alan here. Please don't ask me why.

I quite agree with David's thoughts on this matter.
The Warung is not the only sub forum here that has to deal with this ever present possibility.

Let us not be a place for forgers to mine.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

PS: This is from the same cheater like the previous one. The same manner of taking photos, the same "escavated" condition of the kerises and... the same leaves in the background.

thank you for the accusation, Marius. No hard feeling here

all pictures here are posted with the owner's permission and where can you learn about various keris blades here in Indonesia ?

in the seller's home. He's my friend and he also selling keris, but that's not what we're dealing here. And since my friend never told lies to me, he only told the stories from the person he got the keris from. He hunted tosan aji in villages, I believed it is not wise to call him a cheater. On what occasion did he cheat on you, Marius ?

Amidst of hundreds of tosan aji he's selling, I am only picking what I believed interesting so ALL OF US may learn from it. Where it gone wrong, how to prevent buying a fake keris, how to distinguish a fake one from real ones. Look, I never knew there was actually a Sepang keris in proto form ... someone must've been making them or perhaps this got some kind of basis in reality ? or perhaps I am missing something here ...

who knows if one of have different opinion than mine.

I got most of my answers here, Alan taught me a lot ... to look for clues, the sulphur residue, the trinkets usually found along with the keris. Basically I loved you all because you always true, and that's what I am looking for.

I may not be as experienced as you are, and I really appreciate if you could share your insight, instead of simple lines saying it was artificially aged

for comparison, I collect Japanese sword, and you know what, even those who dealt with nihonto daily can still make a mistake when it comes to shinsa. It is not uncommon to see NTHK anda NBTHK differs in opinion on the same blade.

I have handled perhaps thousands of tosan aji, and still I felt stupider by the day, the more I knew, the more I aware that there are much more I did not understand

so pardon me if my Journey of learning by posting here are offending. If all of you already an expert on this field (which I am clearly not), I will stop posting here.

thank you
Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

So, just a thought here, not an accusation.
Is it wise for us as experienced collectors to pinpoint exactly what gives away a fake so that the forgers can learn from their mistakes and then create better fakes that are harder to judge?
I agree with Alan here. Please don't ask me why.

I believed true keris old keris is impossible to duplicate. It may look the same, but won't feel the same. There are leads, clues that we can use to distinguish them. The problem is artificial aging is easy to be done, and forgers here are very good with what they do. To learn the true knowledge of distinguishing true old blade with new artificially aged ones are important at least for me.

that is exactly why I wanted to share some interesting findings amidst bunch of "ordinary keris" I commonly see in markets here.

We all have to admit that this hobby, or passion need new blood. And it is our duty to nurture those new blood so they wont spend their hard earned money on something fake, or artificially aged.

dunno with you all, but I always kept my mind on the positive

For example, I perfectly knew, that a Jalak Budho is a very rare keris, and yet it popped so many times now. So I treat everything with a pinch of salt and asked for someone far more experienced than me with hope that his opinion may shed new light for me as well as leaving a legacy for all to read and tread carefully.

thanks

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Rick

I quite agree with David's thoughts on this matter.
The Warung is not the only sub forum here that has to deal with this ever present possibility.

Let us not be a place for forgers to mine.

how do we advanced on knowledge if we always put prejudice forward instead of goodwill ? the expert won't share their knowledge, on fear that it may be used negatively and the newbies are only getting hints too difficult to cipher ?

just my 2 cents

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Round pesi Donny?

looks like it, Alan ...

there are some clues I am currently looking at :

1. the corrosion rate of something on submerged for hundreds of years should be more than that
2. the shape of the blade is too long, as I believed that blade from kabudhan era should be short and stout
3. the fused mendak and the remnants of wood on the pesi is somewhat dubious
4. should the pesi be square ??


note that during my journey, only ONCE I held a true kabudhan keris, of which I thought to be genuine. I treated all other as "possible fake"

but I may be wrong

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Jean

Same sort of stuff as the previous ones? Look at the greneng.
Regards

it is coming from my friend. He is a keris dealer and I already asked for his permission to use his pictures on non-commercial site. I did not bought from him nor using this site for commercial usage.

he hunted keris and tosan aji in remote villages and sometimes got around 10 - 15 at one hunt ... not all are worth mentioning, of course. He made a living by cleaning, restoring and selling it

some are true keris, some are blatant fakes, some are interesting and in the border between real and unreal.

Donny

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

some are true keris, some are blatant fakes, some are interesting and in the border between real and unreal.

Donny, if you are sincere about advancing the knowledge of recognizing fakes vs. the real deal for the sake of new collectors perhaps that best thing you could do would be to post some of the tosan aji your friend has discovered that you believe are true keris along side what you think fake or uncertain. These comparisons would go a long way to illustrate the difference for the new collectors. If all you do is continue to post only the fakes you must understand why people will grow suspicious of your motives.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

thank you for the accusation, Marius. No hard feeling here

all pictures here are posted with the owner's permission and where can you learn about various keris blades here in Indonesia ?

in the seller's home. He's my friend and he also selling keris, but that's not what we're dealing here. And since my friend never told lies to me, he only told the stories from the person he got the keris from. He hunted tosan aji in villages, I believed it is not wise to call him a cheater. On what occasion did he cheat on you, Marius ?

Donny

If I, who know almost nothing about kerises (as I handled about 10 kerises in my whole life, out of which 7 are in my collection) could immediately spot a fake, then I would expect your "honest" dealer friend can do it even better.

To me, even atempted cheating is cheating!

And I felt cheated by your friend's repeted stories. But, no, I forgot, they are not even your friend's stories, but the original seller'stories. Your friend, has nothing to say as of course he knows nothing (or almost nothing) about kerises... right?! So, if your dealer friend knows so little about kerises, like any "honest" dealer, the best he can do is to present the story that supposedly came with the keris and let the "caveat emptor" rule...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

how do we advanced on knowledge if we always put prejudice forward instead of goodwill ? the expert won't share their knowledge, on fear that it may be used negatively and the newbies are only getting hints too difficult to cipher ?

just my 2 cents

Donny

I'm not advancing prejudice, Donny.
Far from it.
How are we supposed to accurately judge the authenticity of these pieces you put up from a handful of pixels on a screen?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

Donny, if you are sincere about advancing the knowledge of recognizing fakes vs. the real deal for the sake of new collectors perhaps that best thing you could do would be to post some of the tosan aji your friend has discovered that you believe are true keris along side what you think fake or uncertain. These comparisons would go a long way to illustrate the difference for the new collectors. If all you do is continue to post only the fakes you must understand why people will grow suspicious of your motives.

I take this as an insult ... (just kidding)
David, if you look at my post history, I post a lot of thing. Event of keris, a newly made keris, an odd keris, a good kamardikan keris, and so on. I love this forum and would like to keep it alive

I consider myself lucky, I lived in the land of keris. Perhaps that's why I tend to overlook the common keris ... brojol, tilam upih ... all can be found here in hundreds if not thousands

I also consider myself as an apprentice, as I may be wrong, I do have my opinion, and I try my best to present it but I always kept my doubt that I may be wrong

remember the Singo Sineba I posted earlier ? some said it was antique, until Alan pinpoint where it goes wrong, and it passed many experts here as genuine antique and someone bought it for USD 1,000

for now, I have the chance to know a friend, a keris dealer, so my posts will mostly about him and what I found to be interesting, intriguing as I did not think a post about brojol or tilam upih keris will be interesting for you all. Hey, it's me learning from your opinion here ...

I took your advice to the heart, David, and I will try to post comparison for the next post, but beware ... it may be boring

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

If I, who know almost nothing about kerises (as I handled about 10 kerises in my whole life, out of which 7 are in my collection) could immediately spot a fake, then I would expect your "honest" dealer friend can do it even better.

To me, even atempted cheating is cheating!

And I felt cheated by your friend's repeted stories. But, no, I forgot, they are not even your friend's stories, but the original seller'stories. Your friend, has nothing to say as of course he knows nothing (or almost nothing) about kerises... right?! So, if your dealer friend knows so little about kerises, like any "honest" dealer, the best he can do is to present the story that supposedly came with the keris and let the "caveat emptor" rule...

wow, and may you elaborate on when or where do we attempt cheating on you specifically ?

do I mention the blade is up for sale somewhere ?

I choose to post something because I think there is a lesson to be learned, or to prove myself wrong ... by knowledge, of course

in this point, I read Alan's blog, and see the ancient relief on ancient temple about keris, of which shared some similarities with the example above.

Marius, I believed that it is never wise to point your finger to someone based on prejudice. My friend made a living selling keris, I never said he's an expert at keris. He only made judgement based on what he sees or believed correct. As I said he hunted keris from remote villages and sometimes he got it right, sometimes he got it wrong ... you should be able to pull the string here that he's not Bambang Harsrinuksmo

lasty, how does if feel if someone who barely knows you accusing you of cheating, Marius ? because I got the impression of saint-like personality from you ... perhaps you never cheat in your life

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm not advancing prejudice, Donny.
Far from it.
How are we supposed to accurately judge the authenticity of these pieces you put up from a handful of pixels on a screen?

true, that's why I wanted to hear your opinion.

why ? because Indonesian keris forum is too full with mystics and spiritual mumbo jumbo

Donny

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

remember the Singo Sineba I posted earlier ? some said it was antique, until Alan pinpoint where it goes wrong, and it passed many experts here as genuine antique and someone bought it for USD 1,000

Donny, your memory seems a little foggy there. I just read through that thread again and not a single person that commented from this forum thought they were looking at a legitimate keris. The question was only whether it was an altered older keris or a completely new creation that was artificially aged. And everyone pretty much said that the images you offered made that exact judgement difficult. What i believe Alan finally suggested was that the gonjo may have actually been old and that the wilah may have been built up new upon it. As for the poor sucker who paid $1000 for such an obviously suspicious blade, i cannot speak to their mistake.
Donny, i don't have to look at your history for any validation, i have followed your posts very closely since you first arrived here. I am one of the moderators so that's kind of my job. Frankly the large majority of the keris you post here turn out to be highly questionable examples, from your "river finds" to your bronze blade and a variety of unusually dhapurs and pamor patterns that almost invariably turn out to be contemporary even if they are not always presented as such.
Quite honestly, i would much prefer to discuss "boring" old authentic brojol or tilam upih keris on this forum than the fakes your new keris dealer friend seems so adept at "discovering" as he hunts through the remote villages of your land.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

Donny, your memory seems a little foggy there. I just read through that thread again and not a single person that commented from this forum thought they were looking at a legitimate keris. The question was only whether it was an altered older keris or a completely new creation that was artificially aged. And everyone pretty much said that the images you offered made that exact judgement difficult. What i believe Alan finally suggested was that the gonjo may have actually been old and that the wilah may have been built up new upon it. As for the poor sucker who paid $1000 for such an obviously suspicious blade, i cannot speak to their mistake.
Donny, i don't have to look at your history for any validation, i have followed your posts very closely since you first arrived here. I am one of the moderators so that's kind of my job. Frankly the large majority of the keris you post here turn out to be highly questionable examples, from your "river finds" to your bronze blade and a variety of unusually dhapurs and pamor patterns that almost invariably turn out to be contemporary even if they are not always presented as such.
Quite honestly, i would much prefer to discuss "boring" old authentic brojol or tilam upih keris on this forum than the fakes your new keris dealer friend seems so adept at "discovering" as he hunts through the remote villages of your land.

are you insinuating that I am up to something, David ?
like it or not, fakes are part of the keris world, and since fakes are getting better and better, isn't it better if someone posting a nice example of fakes, of which even Indonesians thought to be genuine ?

I always put "I may be wrong" first. Like the Singo Sineba, I purely thought it was original at first. It fooled me straightforward. Can't I put it here and asked for opinion from people more knowledgeable than me ?

You see that "poor sucker" did pay much for it, and I am glad I am not buying it, since it does looked very nice at first. And up to now, both the seller and the buyer are sure that what they got is old ones, despite what I said

what I posted is what I thought to be intriguing, interesting, I myself may tend to think it was fake, artificially aged, but I am not yet reaching your level of knowledge, so I wanted a good opinion rather than my hunch that it was a fake

but since doing so makes anyone, even moderator thought that I may have some kind of different motives, well I think this is the right time to say farewell

not leaving this forum, but I will stop posting

thanks for all the knowledge I gained here

Donny

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

are you insinuating that I am up to something, David ?
like it or not, fakes are part of the keris world, and since fakes are getting better and better, isn't it better if someone posting a nice example of fakes, of which even Indonesians thought to be genuine ?

No Donny. I am certainly not insinuating anything. Everything i said in my last post is verifiable fact. I have made no inferences based upon those facts. I simply went back through the history of posts that you have started, looked carefully at those discussions and the keris you have presented to us and made some observations. Your motives for posting what you post here are your own and i am making absolutely no accusations about them, only calling them out for what they are purely on the surface.
I completely agree with you Donny. Fakes are an unfortunate part of the current keris world. At no point did i suggest that we should not or could not discuss them here. You tell us you have a new friend, a keris dealer, and that your posts will mostly be about him and the keris he finds and what you think is "interesting, intriguing" in those finds. But so far i have seen nothing from this friend that isn't a fake. So what should we make of your friend and his judgments or abilities as a keris dealer? Whether he is innocently ill-informed or outright dishonest and deceitful i certainly could not say. That is a judgement i don't choose to make. But the reality is that the keris he presents to you, that you then present to us, have so far turned out to be deceptions. That is the reality of the situation. What that tells you about your friend is between you and him and it is your own choice whether or not you decide to stop posting his fakes or any other keris for that matter on this forum. But it you change you mind and do decide to post more, please understand that they will receive direct and honest commentary.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

No Donny. I am certainly not insinuating anything. Everything i said in my last post is verifiable fact. I have made no inferences based upon those facts. I simply went back through the history of posts that you have started, looked carefully at those discussions and the keris you have presented to us and made some observations. Your motives for posting what you post here are your own and i am making absolutely no accusations about them, only calling them out for what they are purely on the surface.
I completely agree with you Donny. Fakes are an unfortunate part of the current keris world. At no point did i suggest that we should not or could not discuss them here. You tell us you have a new friend, a keris dealer, and that your posts will mostly be about him and the keris he finds and what you think is "interesting, intriguing" in those finds. But so far i have seen nothing from this friend that isn't a fake. So what should we make of your friend and his judgments or abilities as a keris dealer? Whether he is innocently ill-informed or outright dishonest and deceitful i certainly could not say. That is a judgement i don't choose to make. But the reality is that the keris he presents to you, that you then present to us, have so far turned out to be deceptions. That is the reality of the situation. What that tells you about your friend is between you and him and it is your own choice whether or not you decide to stop posting his fakes or any other keris for that matter on this forum. But it you change you mind and do decide to post more, please understand that they will receive direct and honest commentary.

okay, I understand

let me clear several things out. My friend is a keris dealer, he sold many many many keris(es) and other tosan aji like swords, tombaks and so on

I am the one, who is to blame, for choosing only what I think interesting to be studied at. Some I know (by hunch) is a fake, but I cannot clearly pinpoint where to look at.

some are what I believed to be genuine (the Singo Sineba is the example).
That is why I come here. to look for answer, a decent one

like I said, I love it here, the atmosphere is nice, but somehow I felt that you all are treating me too harshly ... or perhaps it was just my high expectation from you, as I consider all of you are blade brothers, and brothers never accused brothers of cheating

so all has been said, I will be more careful in my next post. I will stay, and I do hope you all won't mind sharing your knowledge with me.

thank you

Donny

[Jean]

Thank you for staying with us Donny and having been in close contact with Indonesian collectors and dealers I understand your position and questions about these pieces. I visited the Surabaya antiques market (Pasar Turi?) in 2007 before it burned and found that many krisses were forged or recent copies.
Regards