Russian Guard axes - questions

wolviex · 26th November 2005, 01:10 PM

Dear Friends!

I'm looking for any informations, catalogue pictures and measurements of russian guard axes. I have only this one picture, posted below. I believe they were in use in 17th century, but maybe also earlier and later. They are of crescent shape, quite massive, and in general they seem to be similiar to parade axes known from Persia (tabar-zins) and Turkey.
I really hope you have something like this in your great libriaries

Thank you in advance!

Jens Nordlunde · 26th November 2005, 07:07 PM

Hi Wolviex, could the axes be from another country than Russia? The reason why I ask is, that I have been looking in the catalogue 'Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo', and not found anything looking like the axes you show, and I would expect to find axes like that in a catalogue from Russia - although it is no garantee. I am sure you have been looking in the catalogue too

.

Jens

Rivkin · 26th November 2005, 07:32 PM

These axes disappeared long begore Tsarskoe Selo collection was formed... I doubt there are any in St.Petersburg area, there are axes are so Moscow.

wolviex · 27th November 2005, 01:30 PM

Hello Jens!
I'm sure axes are Russian. I was looking for them in some Russian books, but I found nothing. This picture is from old book "Risunki odiezdy u wooruzenija Rossijskich wojsk" (I tried to transliterate from Russian alphabet, so excuse me any mistakes.

Hello Rivkin!
Yes, I believe they're Moscow, while in 17th century the court was still on Kremlin.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2005, 03:25 PM

Hello Wolviex,

Which museum in Moscow would have old weapons, are there an armoury museum in Kremlin?

When I had asked the question above, I remembered that I have a small booklet called ‘Repertory of Museums of Arms and Military History, Copenhagen 1960.

Centralnij Musej Sovetskoj Armij (Central Museum of the Soviet Army), Municipal Square 2, Moscow.

Oruzejnaja Palata (State Armoury), The Kremlin.

Gosudarstvennij Istoritjesti Musej (The State Museum of History), The Red Square, House No. 1-2.

I realise that some, if not all, the museums can have changed their name, but museums don’t often change address. I am sorry, but that is all I have.

Jens

Aqtai · 27th November 2005, 03:46 PM

They are very similar to Mamluk tabars.

ariel · 27th November 2005, 03:49 PM

There is a book on e-bay right now dealing with russian tsars arsenal. I cannot post it now but will do when the auction ends. There is a picture of the ax in question.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2005, 04:26 PM

Ariel, why don't you PM Wolveix wher to find it - he might even buy the book

?

wolviex · 27th November 2005, 04:52 PM

[QUOTE=Aqtai]They are very similar to Mamluk tabars.

Yes, and to those used in Persia. I think Russian ones were created because of Persian/Turkish influences, but it's pure conjecture at the moment.

Ariel, please PM the link to me

. I don't know if I can buy the book, but I suppose it's worth to take a look. Thanks!

ariel · 27th November 2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, why don't you PM Wolveix wher to find it - he might even buy the book

?

Stupid, I guess.....

Wolviex, you have a message!!!!!

wolviex · 28th November 2005, 05:50 PM

The book Ariel mentioned is beautiful indeed. There is a picture of an axe (my sketch of this axe below), but I wonder is it Guards axe, while in presentation text we can find information about "Ambassadorial Axe". But I believe it's a good hint anyway! On the picture we can see that axe is inlayed with gold wire, there is Russian two-headed eagle among the other plaits.

Regards!

Rivkin · 28th November 2005, 11:16 PM

These axes are very different from the ancient rus ones. Attached are status
(lords') axes of the northern areas.

Rivkin · 28th November 2005, 11:31 PM

I heard that A.V. Viskovatov "Histrocal description of cloth and arms of russian military" has some depictions of old Kremlin guard.

btw, could it be polish in origin? Seems these axes are more similar to the weapon of russian strelzy (Harcerzy): berdysz (I always thought its a polish word ?)

Rivkin · 28th November 2005, 11:44 PM

Ok, it is described as "ambassadorial axe, short version of berdysz". The name is that same as the name of the guards themselves - Rynda, it says that it translates as "knights". Was established in 1479 by Basil the third, their weapon was called "ambassodorial axe" because during Ivan the Terrible their role was limited to being present during the visits of foreign ambassadors, they did not leave the residence itself. Their role as guards was transferred to oprichniks' guard. Reappeared as guards after the abolition of oprichniks. Abolished by Peter the Great.

wolviex · 29th November 2005, 04:54 PM

Ha! Rynda! Google search help me to find that they were tar's personal bodyguards recruited from the noblemens, equipped with the best weapons and horses, always close to the emperor. There is a site with "Russian scale models" where is figurine of almost identical Rynda as on my picture, with axe, dated on 16th century. This axes (according to other forum - The Guild forums) are called "POSOLSKI TOPOR", but I have no idea what this "posolski" is meaning

. Most of the russian-language people are tending to call such axes "berdish/berdysz". Rivkin, I always thought it's Russian word

. Berdishes, in strictly todays meaning, were great axes, with long edge. They were in use first of all in Russia, then in 17th century in Poland. After the years, the "Berdish" word is often assign to just "big axe" I think.

Are you sure AMBASSADORIAL is the same as RYNDA? I always thought that ambassador is some kind of envoy from another country. And if Ambassadors were called Rynda, maybe it's just the same word for two different things? Uh, I think I will need some explanation before I get lost

Regards

Rivkin · 29th November 2005, 05:36 PM

Ryndas were bodyguards, not ambassadors; but they were always present during the reception of foreign ambassadors by Ivan the Terrible, therefore the name "ambassadorial (in russian - posolski) axe".

B.I · 29th November 2005, 05:45 PM

hi michal,
i assume this is the axe that you have drawn (silhouette).
it is thought to be 1st half of the 17thC, but no exact date is known.

wolviex · 29th November 2005, 07:24 PM

Ah! Stupid me! In Polish - posolski=poselski

now it's so obvious.Thank you Rivkin!

Hi Brian! This is exactly the same axe! I'm happy about the date, because I'm looking for the axes just from this period (strictly around 1640-50). Thank you for this photo.

If anybody have any other pictures or informations, please post them! I will be happy if you'll find any other examples of such axes from territories on the East of Poland (except Ottoman and Persian ones, these are well known).

Thank you and regards!

wolviex · 13th December 2005, 12:37 PM

*bump*

Another picture of russian axe of this type, from known 16th century engraving, where you can also find other Russian weapons and armament. If anyone have other pictures or informations, please post them here.

Regards!

B.I · 13th December 2005, 09:20 PM

hi michal,
not sure if this is of any use, nor whether you will be able to read it here. if not, i will email you a larger pic if requested. it has the stats at the top.

wolviex · 13th December 2005, 09:41 PM

Thank you Brian, everything is legible, and this text is next great help. As we can read, they are great rarity. But this is rarity of ambassadorial axes, I wonder what about simple war axes, or just ceremonial axes (if there were any) like this presented on engraving, with other (most or less) popular or known weapons. Well, we have sabres, bows, saddles, everything what we can find on this picture, but axes

Regards

PZ93C · 15th December 2005, 05:41 AM

If I had to guess, and it is a wild guess, I'd say that your picture in the firstpost predates the example pictured in BI's post. The genuine article seems more decorated, ceremonial maybe, than the ones that are drawn.

The drawn axes look business-like. Not just pretty.

Brian

26th November 2005, 01:10 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Russian Guard axes - questions Dear Friends! I'm looking for any informations, catalogue pictures and measurements of russian guard axes. I have only this one picture, posted below. I believe they were in use in 17th century, but maybe also earlier and later. They are of crescent shape, quite massive, and in general they seem to be similiar to parade axes known from Persia (tabar-zins) and Turkey. I really hope you have something like this in your great libriaries Thank you in advance! Attached Images

26th November 2005, 07:07 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Wolviex, could the axes be from another country than Russia? The reason why I ask is, that I have been looking in the catalogue 'Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo', and not found anything looking like the axes you show, and I would expect to find axes like that in a catalogue from Russia - although it is no garantee. I am sure you have been looking in the catalogue too. Jens

27th November 2005, 04:26 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, why don't you PM Wolveix wher to find it - he might even buy the book?

27th November 2005, 04:52 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	[QUOTE=Aqtai]They are very similar to Mamluk tabars. Yes, and to those used in Persia. I think Russian ones were created because of Persian/Turkish influences, but it's pure conjecture at the moment. Ariel, please PM the link to me . I don't know if I can buy the book, but I suppose it's worth to take a look. Thanks! Attached Images

28th November 2005, 05:50 PM	#11
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	The book Ariel mentioned is beautiful indeed. There is a picture of an axe (my sketch of this axe below), but I wonder is it Guards axe, while in presentation text we can find information about "Ambassadorial Axe". But I believe it's a good hint anyway! On the picture we can see that axe is inlayed with gold wire, there is Russian two-headed eagle among the other plaits. Regards! Attached Images

26th November 2005, 07:32 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	These axes disappeared long begore Tsarskoe Selo collection was formed... I doubt there are any in St.Petersburg area, there are axes are so Moscow.

27th November 2005, 01:30 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello Jens! I'm sure axes are Russian. I was looking for them in some Russian books, but I found nothing. This picture is from old book "Risunki odiezdy u wooruzenija Rossijskich wojsk" (I tried to transliterate from Russian alphabet, so excuse me any mistakes. Hello Rivkin! Yes, I believe they're Moscow, while in 17th century the court was still on Kremlin.

27th November 2005, 03:25 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Wolviex, Which museum in Moscow would have old weapons, are there an armoury museum in Kremlin? When I had asked the question above, I remembered that I have a small booklet called ‘Repertory of Museums of Arms and Military History, Copenhagen 1960. Centralnij Musej Sovetskoj Armij (Central Museum of the Soviet Army), Municipal Square 2, Moscow. Oruzejnaja Palata (State Armoury), The Kremlin. Gosudarstvennij Istoritjesti Musej (The State Museum of History), The Red Square, House No. 1-2. I realise that some, if not all, the museums can have changed their name, but museums don’t often change address. I am sorry, but that is all I have. Jens

27th November 2005, 03:46 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	They are very similar to Mamluk tabars.

27th November 2005, 03:49 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a book on e-bay right now dealing with russian tsars arsenal. I cannot post it now but will do when the auction ends. There is a picture of the ax in question.

28th November 2005, 11:16 PM	#12
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	These axes are very different from the ancient rus ones. Attached are status (lords') axes of the northern areas. Attached Images

28th November 2005, 11:31 PM	#13
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I heard that A.V. Viskovatov "Histrocal description of cloth and arms of russian military" has some depictions of old Kremlin guard. btw, could it be polish in origin? Seems these axes are more similar to the weapon of russian strelzy (Harcerzy): berdysz (I always thought its a polish word ?)

28th November 2005, 11:44 PM	#14
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Ok, it is described as "ambassadorial axe, short version of berdysz". The name is that same as the name of the guards themselves - Rynda, it says that it translates as "knights". Was established in 1479 by Basil the third, their weapon was called "ambassodorial axe" because during Ivan the Terrible their role was limited to being present during the visits of foreign ambassadors, they did not leave the residence itself. Their role as guards was transferred to oprichniks' guard. Reappeared as guards after the abolition of oprichniks. Abolished by Peter the Great.

29th November 2005, 04:54 PM	#15
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Ha! Rynda! Google search help me to find that they were tar's personal bodyguards recruited from the noblemens, equipped with the best weapons and horses, always close to the emperor. There is a site with "Russian scale models" where is figurine of almost identical Rynda as on my picture, with axe, dated on 16th century. This axes (according to other forum - The Guild forums) are called "POSOLSKI TOPOR", but I have no idea what this "posolski" is meaning . Most of the russian-language people are tending to call such axes "berdish/berdysz". Rivkin, I always thought it's Russian word . Berdishes, in strictly todays meaning, were great axes, with long edge. They were in use first of all in Russia, then in 17th century in Poland. After the years, the "Berdish" word is often assign to just "big axe" I think. Are you sure AMBASSADORIAL is the same as RYNDA? I always thought that ambassador is some kind of envoy from another country. And if Ambassadors were called Rynda, maybe it's just the same word for two different things? Uh, I think I will need some explanation before I get lost Regards

29th November 2005, 05:36 PM	#16
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Ryndas were bodyguards, not ambassadors; but they were always present during the reception of foreign ambassadors by Ivan the Terrible, therefore the name "ambassadorial (in russian - posolski) axe".

29th November 2005, 05:45 PM	#17
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i assume this is the axe that you have drawn (silhouette). it is thought to be 1st half of the 17thC, but no exact date is known. Attached Images

29th November 2005, 07:24 PM	#18
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Ah! Stupid me! In Polish - posolski=poselski now it's so obvious.Thank you Rivkin! Hi Brian! This is exactly the same axe! I'm happy about the date, because I'm looking for the axes just from this period (strictly around 1640-50). Thank you for this photo. If anybody have any other pictures or informations, please post them! I will be happy if you'll find any other examples of such axes from territories on the East of Poland (except Ottoman and Persian ones, these are well known). Thank you and regards!

13th December 2005, 12:37 PM	#19
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	bump Another picture of russian axe of this type, from known 16th century engraving, where you can also find other Russian weapons and armament. If anyone have other pictures or informations, please post them here. Regards! Attached Images

13th December 2005, 09:20 PM	#20
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, not sure if this is of any use, nor whether you will be able to read it here. if not, i will email you a larger pic if requested. it has the stats at the top. Attached Images

13th December 2005, 09:41 PM	#21
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you Brian, everything is legible, and this text is next great help. As we can read, they are great rarity. But this is rarity of ambassadorial axes, I wonder what about simple war axes, or just ceremonial axes (if there were any) like this presented on engraving, with other (most or less) popular or known weapons. Well, we have sabres, bows, saddles, everything what we can find on this picture, but axes Regards

15th December 2005, 05:41 AM	#22
PZ93C Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1	If I had to guess, and it is a wild guess, I'd say that your picture in the firstpost predates the example pictured in BI's post. The genuine article seems more decorated, ceremonial maybe, than the ones that are drawn. The drawn axes look business-like. Not just pretty. Brian