Nice Peninsula keris

Sajen · 22nd August 2013, 04:04 PM

This beauty was recently sold by ebay and I think the new owner know exactly why he have paid so much money. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Indo...vip=true&rt=nc

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2013, 12:03 AM

Nice keris.

Detlef, considering what we are looking at here, I would not regard this as a high price for this keris. Yes, it is a lot of money, but it is not an unreasonable price for a fine piece such as this.

Sajen · 23rd August 2013, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Nice keris.

Detlef, considering what we are looking at here, I would not regard this as a high price for this keris. Yes, it is a lot of money, but it is not an unreasonable price for a fine piece such as this.

Hello Alan,

agree with you. I was bidding as well but sadly I haven't had so much money to go with.

asomotif · 26th August 2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

This beauty was recently sold by ebay and I think the new owner know exactly why he have paid so much money.

Detlef,

I don't understand.
First you state that the new owner paid "much money". And than you agree with Alan that it is not an unreasonable price. (although still a lot of money)

I must say that I really like the blade.
But for the rest.
The scabbard is missing the buntut and we have no indication if it has a good fit.
The handle, not very common, but simple, andt the eye may be emerald, but just as wel it might be glass.

Maybe you can explain why this is a reasonable price ?

Best regards,
Willem

Sajen · 26th August 2013, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Detlef,

I don't understand.
First you state that the new owner paid "much money". And than you agree with Alan that it is not an unreasonable price. (although still a lot of money)

I must say that I really like the blade.
But for the rest.
The scabbard is missing the buntut and we have no indication if it has a good fit.
The handle, not very common, but simple, andt the eye may be emerald, but just as wel it might be glass.

Maybe you can explain why this is a reasonable price ?

Best regards,
Willem

Hello Willem,

for my budget is the paid amount a lot of money but when I would have much more money in my wallet I would have paid it since I think like Alan that the paid prize is reasonable. Sorry when this wasn't clear to understand.
But I have stated also that the new owner will have known why he was willing to pay this amount.

I am like you know a keris collector and as that I look mainly to the blade and btw I wouln't be surprised when this keris have it's new home in Malaysia or Singapore. The blade is in my opinion an very nice old example. A blade of this quality you don't find every day and a dealer would have taken much more.
When the blade wouln't fit with the sarung you can work it to fit or look for an other one or let work a new one. A buntut is easy to work and when someone don't like the hilt it will be easy to change with an other one. But frankly said I like this hilt and the pendokok is also not bad. My personal feeling is that all parts belong together but this is only a feeling.
When you will let work a new blade of this quality in Malaysia I doubt that the paid price for this one will be enough.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2013, 01:59 AM

Willem, few people would argue that $1000 is not a substantial sum of money, however it is in fact a very minor sum of money to pay for a good quality keris.

This keris under discussion is no masterpiece, but it is an older keris with good garap, good material and in good condition, moreover its separate parts are also older items. Keris such as this are in high demand amongst serious and perceptive collectors. If this keris had been sold by a specialist dealer it would have been sold for a considerably higher price. In fact, it would not surprise me if this keris has been purchased by a dealer.

The value of all things is comparative:- $15,000 would be a very low price for a late model Mercedes Benz, but it would be a reasonable price to pay for a Toyota Corolla of the same vintage.

asomotif · 27th August 2013, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Willem, few people would argue that $1000 is not a substantial sum of money, however it is in fact a very minor sum of money to pay for a good quality keris.

This keris under discussion is no masterpiece, but it is an older keris with good garap, good material and in good condition, moreover its separate parts are also older items. Keris such as this are in high demand amongst serious and perceptive collectors. If this keris had been sold by a specialist dealer it would have been sold for a considerably higher price. In fact, it would not surprise me if this keris has been purchased by a dealer.

The value of all things is comparative:- $15,000 would be a very low price for a late model Mercedes Benz, but it would be a reasonable price to pay for a Toyota Corolla of the same vintage.

Dear Alan,

I always like your comparisson with cars.
But I guess that there is also a factor supply / demand in this case.

The fact that this is a peninsular keris probably adds to the value.
I assume that a javanese keris of similar age and quality would not fetch the same price at this time... Is that a correct assumption ?

Best regards,
Willem

David · 27th August 2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I don't understand.
First you state that the new owner paid "much money". And than you agree with Alan that it is not an unreasonable price. (although still a lot of money)

I don't see a conflict there. Often "much money" is not the same as "TOO much money". In this case this seems a good price, even if the gemstone eyes of the hilt turn out to be pastes. The stones is not where the value of this keris lies. Obviously some restoration is needed here. But a new buntet is easy enough to do and any other restoration here seems pretty minor. The hilt is a rare and old type carved in horn it would appear and would carry a fair price all on its own, but the real value here is in the blade, which perhaps is not a masterpiece as Alan points out, but is none the less a very nice blade indeed.

Jean · 27th August 2013, 09:10 PM

Confucius said (or he should have said): "A good price for a kris is the one which you are prepared to pay". Since recently some "nouveaux riches" start to buy krisses from the major auction houses at crazy prices and this is bad news for the collectors with a light purse....
I recently bought this nice and original (although very small) kris on Ebay for 12 times less than the above piece , this is what I consider as a good deal

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2013, 10:40 PM

Yes Jean, it is a good deal. Very good, and we all know that auction prices, either online, or real world are not truly indicative of a fair market price. That, I guess, is one of the big attractions of any auction:- if you're lucky you can well get a bargain --- or get a dud.

However, putting luck, or lack of it, to one side, this little keris that you bought, although well below a reasonable price, does not in any way bear comparison with the keris that started this discussion. As Willem has pointed out, there is a supply and demand factor involved, and older keris with blades of excellent garap, in good condition, and of good material are always in very short supply. Added to the desirability of the first keris shown is the hilt. As David mentioned, this hilt alone has a very high value.

Willem, you raised the question of whether a Javanese keris of age, condition and quality similar to the keris under discussion could be expected to realise a price similar to price that keris.

In my experience such a Javanese keris would exceed the price of the keris under discussion.

Why?

Once again, supply and demand. Javanese keris of age, condition and quality such as this are simply never seen on the open market. Yes, there are a great many Javanese keris available in the marketplace, but old Javanese keris in excellent condition and of excellent quality?

One of the truly great problems with the keris is that very few people have the experience or knowledge to recognise keris quality. The recognition of artistic content is possibly a little bit easier, and rarity is easiest of all, because all we need to do is to keep tabs on availability from our regular sources. But quality? How does one judge quality in a keris?

This reminds me of a thread of many years ago with a title something like "Good Keris".

In essence, a "good keris" can be either subjectively judged, or objectively judged.

For the vast bulk of people it is a subjective judgement:- I like it, I need to live with it, I can afford it:- it’s a good keris.

For a very few people it is an objective judgement:- the material is dense and compact, the form is pleasing, follows correct dhapur, and in profile creates the feeling of a man in a state of peace, the garap is deep, well balanced and well defined, the pamor motif, if there is one, has been perfectly created, and the exposure of the core is adequate and even around the entire edge of the blade, in stain the blade is a strong lively colour, gonjo proportion and form indicates strength. These are the absolute basics of the objective judgement of whether a keris is one of quality or not. However, even in application of these indicators of quality, a great deal of experience and more than a little training is required to apply them correctly. I repeat:- these indicators are basic; very basic.

When I apply these indicators to what I can see in the photograph of the keris under discussion here, even though it is only a photo and as such immensely inadequate, I am compelled to form the opinion that I am looking at a very good keris indeed.

Clarification:- what I have written above is directed only at the keris; I am only speaking of the blade:- the blade is the keris, the dress items can and do change and are not appraised in the same way as is the keris itself.

Moshah · 6th September 2013, 09:00 PM

Don't you guys think this keris was a Sumatran instead of peninsula piece?

The dress is peninsula alright, but the blade does not seem as one...

Sajen · 6th September 2013, 09:32 PM

Hello Moshah,

I am far away to be an expert but I don't think so. But maybe someone with more knowledge will be able to enlighten us.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 7th September 2013, 04:10 AM

Moshah, i could be wrong, but this keris looks all Peninsula to me. The ricikan does not look Sumatran at all to me. The greneng is all wrong for one.

Moshah · 30th September 2013, 05:45 AM

The only thing that make me think that it is not Peninsular was the tikel alis, which from my understanding when it looks like a "hockey stick" most likely it is from Sumatra.

Never an expert in Sumatran greneng (nor in the kerises) myself, so I just asked based on the tikel alis point of view.

There is close ties between peninsular kingdom (especially Terengganu) with Sumatran kingdom of Siak of the old, so I guess sometimes we can see it translated into the art of keris anyway, in a very good way it is!

Personally, I really like this piece. Straight and stout.

22nd August 2013, 04:04 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Nice Peninsula keris This beauty was recently sold by ebay and I think the new owner know exactly why he have paid so much money. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Indo...vip=true&rt=nc Attached Images

27th August 2013, 09:10 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Confucius said (or he should have said): "A good price for a kris is the one which you are prepared to pay". Since recently some "nouveaux riches" start to buy krisses from the major auction houses at crazy prices and this is bad news for the collectors with a light purse.... I recently bought this nice and original (although very small) kris on Ebay for 12 times less than the above piece , this is what I consider as a good deal Regards Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 28th August 2013 at 09:13 AM.

27th August 2013, 10:40 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Jean, it is a good deal. Very good, and we all know that auction prices, either online, or real world are not truly indicative of a fair market price. That, I guess, is one of the big attractions of any auction:- if you're lucky you can well get a bargain --- or get a dud. However, putting luck, or lack of it, to one side, this little keris that you bought, although well below a reasonable price, does not in any way bear comparison with the keris that started this discussion. As Willem has pointed out, there is a supply and demand factor involved, and older keris with blades of excellent garap, in good condition, and of good material are always in very short supply. Added to the desirability of the first keris shown is the hilt. As David mentioned, this hilt alone has a very high value. Willem, you raised the question of whether a Javanese keris of age, condition and quality similar to the keris under discussion could be expected to realise a price similar to price that keris. In my experience such a Javanese keris would exceed the price of the keris under discussion. Why? Once again, supply and demand. Javanese keris of age, condition and quality such as this are simply never seen on the open market. Yes, there are a great many Javanese keris available in the marketplace, but old Javanese keris in excellent condition and of excellent quality? One of the truly great problems with the keris is that very few people have the experience or knowledge to recognise keris quality. The recognition of artistic content is possibly a little bit easier, and rarity is easiest of all, because all we need to do is to keep tabs on availability from our regular sources. But quality? How does one judge quality in a keris? This reminds me of a thread of many years ago with a title something like "Good Keris". In essence, a "good keris" can be either subjectively judged, or objectively judged. For the vast bulk of people it is a subjective judgement:- I like it, I need to live with it, I can afford it:- it’s a good keris. For a very few people it is an objective judgement:- the material is dense and compact, the form is pleasing, follows correct dhapur, and in profile creates the feeling of a man in a state of peace, the garap is deep, well balanced and well defined, the pamor motif, if there is one, has been perfectly created, and the exposure of the core is adequate and even around the entire edge of the blade, in stain the blade is a strong lively colour, gonjo proportion and form indicates strength. These are the absolute basics of the objective judgement of whether a keris is one of quality or not. However, even in application of these indicators of quality, a great deal of experience and more than a little training is required to apply them correctly. I repeat:- these indicators are basic; very basic. When I apply these indicators to what I can see in the photograph of the keris under discussion here, even though it is only a photo and as such immensely inadequate, I am compelled to form the opinion that I am looking at a very good keris indeed. Clarification:- what I have written above is directed only at the keris; I am only speaking of the blade:- the blade is the keris, the dress items can and do change and are not appraised in the same way as is the keris itself. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th August 2013 at 10:45 PM. Reason: clarification

23rd August 2013, 12:03 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Nice keris. Detlef, considering what we are looking at here, I would not regard this as a high price for this keris. Yes, it is a lot of money, but it is not an unreasonable price for a fine piece such as this.

27th August 2013, 01:59 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Willem, few people would argue that $1000 is not a substantial sum of money, however it is in fact a very minor sum of money to pay for a good quality keris. This keris under discussion is no masterpiece, but it is an older keris with good garap, good material and in good condition, moreover its separate parts are also older items. Keris such as this are in high demand amongst serious and perceptive collectors. If this keris had been sold by a specialist dealer it would have been sold for a considerably higher price. In fact, it would not surprise me if this keris has been purchased by a dealer. The value of all things is comparative:- $15,000 would be a very low price for a late model Mercedes Benz, but it would be a reasonable price to pay for a Toyota Corolla of the same vintage.

6th September 2013, 09:00 PM	#11
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Don't you guys think this keris was a Sumatran instead of peninsula piece? The dress is peninsula alright, but the blade does not seem as one...

6th September 2013, 09:32 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Moshah, I am far away to be an expert but I don't think so. But maybe someone with more knowledge will be able to enlighten us. Regards, Detlef

7th September 2013, 04:10 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Moshah, i could be wrong, but this keris looks all Peninsula to me. The ricikan does not look Sumatran at all to me. The greneng is all wrong for one.

30th September 2013, 05:45 AM	#14
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	The only thing that make me think that it is not Peninsular was the tikel alis, which from my understanding when it looks like a "hockey stick" most likely it is from Sumatra. Never an expert in Sumatran greneng (nor in the kerises) myself, so I just asked based on the tikel alis point of view. There is close ties between peninsular kingdom (especially Terengganu) with Sumatran kingdom of Siak of the old, so I guess sometimes we can see it translated into the art of keris anyway, in a very good way it is! Personally, I really like this piece. Straight and stout.