My new Georgian spadroon

Kmaddock · 23rd March 2018, 01:03 PM

Hi All
My new Georgian Spadroon
I am assuming 1780 ‘s or so
Some remenants of gilt under langet
82 cm blade and a lovely balance and feel
Ivory grips in great condition with no chipping or major cracking at all and blade in nice condition.
I really like this one and I reckon it is a keeper
Hope you like it too
Regards
Ken

Richard G · 23rd March 2018, 10:32 PM

Unusual ribbing on the ivory grips, however I don't think this is of any great significance.
Regards
Richard

M ELEY · 24th March 2018, 03:14 AM

Excellent acquisition, Ken! One I would be proud to have in my own collection (remember me in your will-

). The script 'GR' places it in the period you mention, but the defining point is that small drilled hole in the knucklebow that often had a ring device placed here. This feature became popular after 1790 up to about 1800. It is a way to differentiate some of the officer's naval swords of the period, those with drilled holes and those without.

Is the hilt ivory, bone or simply white wood? I have a sword of this period with the same ribbed grip and this style wasn't uncommon. I originally thought my grip (black material) was horn, but I soon learned it was ebony wood, so wood grips were also common. In any case, an excellent specimen dating to the time of the Quasi-War, Napoleonic and War of 1812 era.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11883

thinreadline · 25th March 2018, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Excellent acquisition, Ken! One I would be proud to have in my own collection (remember me in your will-

). The script 'GR' places it in the period you mention, but the defining point is that small drilled hole in the knucklebow that often had a ring device placed here. This feature became popular after 1790 up to about 1800. It is a way to differentiate some of the officer's naval swords of the period, those with drilled holes and those without.

Is the hilt ivory, bone or simply white wood? I have a sword of this period with the same ribbed grip and this style wasn't uncommon. I originally thought my grip (black material) was horn, but I soon learned it was ebony wood, so wood grips were also common. In any case, an excellent specimen dating to the time of the Quasi-War, Napoleonic and War of 1812 era.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11883

Can you expand on the naval vs non naval officer aspect of these swords re the drilled hole. Have not heard this before and it sounds rather interesting .

M ELEY · 25th March 2018, 03:42 AM

Sorry about the 'naval' mention and I didn't mean for it to set us off track. That particular aspect of a naval sword I've owned led to that discovery, but in fact any of these sabers that have the retention hole at the top of the knuckle bow are invariably 1790 up to 1800. You will note in the sword thread I posted, the knuckle bow has that swelled area where the knucklebow attaches to the hilt/pommel area, but no bored hole. I date mine to 1770's up to 1790-ish. It appears this hole device became the fashion around the 1790 period (last decade of the 18th c.) to have this little hole, sometimes with ring attachment. Don't ask me what the h#ll it was for!!

I will also say that because this was such a fashion on English officer's swords (infantry, naval, NCO) that sometimes an earlier sword, say from the 1770's or so, had the hole drilled out at a later time. I've only seen this once, however. I do wish I can remember the EXACT source for this info, as I know its important to substantiate sources. I will try to look through my books for the pinpoint info. In the meantime, we are only talking about a difference in about 20 years or so. Spadroons (and other officer-type swords from the UK) circa 1770's up to 1800 have very little differences in their patterns.

Glenn, are you out there, buddy? You might weigh in on this one?

kronckew · 25th March 2018, 11:20 AM

The ring was for attaching a sword knot according to my ref. book of british naval swords. It does also show some swords without a ring, but with a hole (for one). these spadroon types appear to be late 18c to early 19c. I also have an American eagle pommeled 5 ball spadroon model from the early 19c with the portapee attachment ring.

This hanger came without a brass ring, so i added one, assuming the original one had broken off. Shown with a knot i made for display, until i get a proper one.

M ELEY · 25th March 2018, 12:44 PM

Excellent post, Wayne! I very much like your spadroon. The fact that it still has a capstan indicates it's pretty early, pre-1800. A sword knot makes sense now that you have enlightened me. The other weapons you mention seem to support that the sword knot/ring/hole device was 1790-1805 or so. A lot of the 5 ball guard swords have them.
Mark

Kmaddock · 25th March 2018, 11:40 PM

Hi Mark
Thanks for the thumbs up and the extra information,
The grip is ivory and actually my very first ivory handled sword. I have a fairly divergent collection but never had ivory sort some strange reason.
I reckon this is a keeper so it will be a while before this one gets moved on to someone else but my 9 year old has a good interest in my collection and I reckon he will be ahead of you in the will stakes, sorry mark

Regards
Ken

M ELEY · 27th March 2018, 12:27 AM

I understand and will cry quietly-

Very nice acquisition either way. Hoping to add a naval spadroon to my collection some day. You are lucky and fortunate to have someone that values your collection. My two daughters and their boyfriends have no interest. Sigh...

Mark

M ELEY · 29th March 2018, 10:08 PM

Wayne, what is the length of the sword you posted? It looks like a shorter blade; a perfect connection to onboard sea use! Also, how about a pic of that eagle head American sword? Unless you posted it in the past and I missed it?
Mark

kronckew · 29th March 2018, 11:29 PM

Sadly, it's likely a reproduction & i've been asked not to post them by the management.

The 'real' one has a 24.75 in. blade, perfect for naval use. Can't see any markings but there is an area near the guard that is scratched an looks like it may have had a two line label along the blade rather than across. it instantly became one of my favourites. posted here earlier: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...03&postcount=3

Hotspur · 30th March 2018, 04:26 PM

Knot rings do not necessarily note naval. Many stirrup shaped knuckle guards (five ball or not) have the enlarged casting boss near the pommel without having being drilled for a ring. The long grooves on a grip are regarded as reeding, as opposed to ribbing (at least in many texts.

A small spadroon file with some variety that I have archived You'll see another shallow reeded ivory in there, files to large to easily attach but lots to browse.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...DQ?usp=sharing

The shallow reeding/ribbing of the object sword is less common than a more regular spacing while not being terribly unusual. Although not necessarily the origin, I have noted it on some grips (typically dove head hilts) from the Netherlands. However, Ames of the US using an uneven reeding well into the 19th century, albeit more contoured vs the smooth with grooves we see on the object sword. A couple of my ebony grips below and I could show a handful of my horns but not really relevant to the object sword.

British horn grips quite brown are steamed and pressed. Continental carved and polished black until later ranging from greenish to dark brown.

Some of my stuff.
Cheers
GC

kronckew · 30th March 2018, 08:09 PM

I don't think anyone has implied that sword knots were knot (

) universal, or confined to naval use. You landlubbers are just as likely to drop something as us naval types, more so if you are on a horse.

A ring can, thru wear or trauma, break off any time after it was out of serve and the sword knot crumbled to dust, thus leaving us with a hole that may have once been occupied. I do think most if not all swords in service would have had an appropriate sword knot during their active service life, whatever their service branch, as they do now. Even the helmet pommeled cross guard one.

Hotspur has a very cool collection by the way. Very nice swords all.

Hotspur · 30th March 2018, 09:45 PM

Sword knots were mentioned as required gear, even on foot, in some manuals throughout the 19th century.

I mention knots not necessarily naval, as it becomes a descriptive. I had carried it for a long time myself, from a single book phrase.

Cheers

GC

M ELEY · 31st March 2018, 05:56 AM

Thanks, Glenn, for coming in on this one. Love the excellent specimens you posted as well. Any input on when the actual hole/ring became popular. I used to have an old source book (God knows where I put it) that claimed this was something that became popular in the last decade of the 18th. Your thoughts?
Mark

Hotspur · 31st March 2018, 08:21 PM

The implementation of the rings does seem to be the last decade(s) of the 18th century into the 19th but in general, to me it seems just an extra. That we saw the castings with ample space to drill for a ring and a majority not added makes it an option, something a patron asked for or elected from stock. With slots and holes continuing on a lot of hilts, those methods seem more lasting and secure. A ring not allowing for much width of what we see for ribbon like knots. A ring affording for little more than a braided cord, what have you.

Cheers

GC

kronckew · 31st March 2018, 09:16 PM

I agree, one reason i have not yet found a knot that sets well on it, the one photo i found with a wide strap on one looked awful. A round cord like on the std. naval nots would be better, but the std. ones are still a bit too fat. Flat ones thru the slot on a 1796 LC look fine tho...

I've seen a braided leather round cord (about 3mm dia. cord) knot in brown with a ball knot termination that looked like it's be fine for a hanger, it was being sold as an original cutlass lanyard for more than some of my swords cost.

23rd March 2018, 01:03 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	My new Georgian spadroon Hi All My new Georgian Spadroon I am assuming 1780 ‘s or so Some remenants of gilt under langet 82 cm blade and a lovely balance and feel Ivory grips in great condition with no chipping or major cracking at all and blade in nice condition. I really like this one and I reckon it is a keeper Hope you like it too Regards Ken Attached Images

24th March 2018, 03:14 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Excellent acquisition, Ken! One I would be proud to have in my own collection (remember me in your will- ). The script 'GR' places it in the period you mention, but the defining point is that small drilled hole in the knucklebow that often had a ring device placed here. This feature became popular after 1790 up to about 1800. It is a way to differentiate some of the officer's naval swords of the period, those with drilled holes and those without. Is the hilt ivory, bone or simply white wood? I have a sword of this period with the same ribbed grip and this style wasn't uncommon. I originally thought my grip (black material) was horn, but I soon learned it was ebony wood, so wood grips were also common. In any case, an excellent specimen dating to the time of the Quasi-War, Napoleonic and War of 1812 era. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11883 Last edited by M ELEY; 24th March 2018 at 09:49 AM.

25th March 2018, 11:20 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	The ring was for attaching a sword knot according to my ref. book of british naval swords. It does also show some swords without a ring, but with a hole (for one). these spadroon types appear to be late 18c to early 19c. I also have an American eagle pommeled 5 ball spadroon model from the early 19c with the portapee attachment ring. This hanger came without a brass ring, so i added one, assuming the original one had broken off. Shown with a knot i made for display, until i get a proper one. Attached Images

29th March 2018, 11:29 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Sadly, it's likely a reproduction & i've been asked not to post them by the management. The 'real' one has a 24.75 in. blade, perfect for naval use. Can't see any markings but there is an area near the guard that is scratched an looks like it may have had a two line label along the blade rather than across. it instantly became one of my favourites. posted here earlier: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...03&postcount=3 Last edited by kronckew; 30th March 2018 at 12:08 AM.

30th March 2018, 04:26 PM	#12
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Knot rings do not necessarily note naval. Many stirrup shaped knuckle guards (five ball or not) have the enlarged casting boss near the pommel without having being drilled for a ring. The long grooves on a grip are regarded as reeding, as opposed to ribbing (at least in many texts. A small spadroon file with some variety that I have archived You'll see another shallow reeded ivory in there, files to large to easily attach but lots to browse. https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...DQ?usp=sharing The shallow reeding/ribbing of the object sword is less common than a more regular spacing while not being terribly unusual. Although not necessarily the origin, I have noted it on some grips (typically dove head hilts) from the Netherlands. However, Ames of the US using an uneven reeding well into the 19th century, albeit more contoured vs the smooth with grooves we see on the object sword. A couple of my ebony grips below and I could show a handful of my horns but not really relevant to the object sword. British horn grips quite brown are steamed and pressed. Continental carved and polished black until later ranging from greenish to dark brown. Some of my stuff. Cheers GC Attached Images

23rd March 2018, 10:32 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Unusual ribbing on the ivory grips, however I don't think this is of any great significance. Regards Richard

25th March 2018, 03:42 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Sorry about the 'naval' mention and I didn't mean for it to set us off track. That particular aspect of a naval sword I've owned led to that discovery, but in fact any of these sabers that have the retention hole at the top of the knuckle bow are invariably 1790 up to 1800. You will note in the sword thread I posted, the knuckle bow has that swelled area where the knucklebow attaches to the hilt/pommel area, but no bored hole. I date mine to 1770's up to 1790-ish. It appears this hole device became the fashion around the 1790 period (last decade of the 18th c.) to have this little hole, sometimes with ring attachment. Don't ask me what the h#ll it was for!! I will also say that because this was such a fashion on English officer's swords (infantry, naval, NCO) that sometimes an earlier sword, say from the 1770's or so, had the hole drilled out at a later time. I've only seen this once, however. I do wish I can remember the EXACT source for this info, as I know its important to substantiate sources. I will try to look through my books for the pinpoint info. In the meantime, we are only talking about a difference in about 20 years or so. Spadroons (and other officer-type swords from the UK) circa 1770's up to 1800 have very little differences in their patterns. Glenn, are you out there, buddy? You might weigh in on this one?

25th March 2018, 12:44 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Excellent post, Wayne! I very much like your spadroon. The fact that it still has a capstan indicates it's pretty early, pre-1800. A sword knot makes sense now that you have enlightened me. The other weapons you mention seem to support that the sword knot/ring/hole device was 1790-1805 or so. A lot of the 5 ball guard swords have them. Mark

25th March 2018, 11:40 PM	#8
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Mark Thanks for the thumbs up and the extra information, The grip is ivory and actually my very first ivory handled sword. I have a fairly divergent collection but never had ivory sort some strange reason. I reckon this is a keeper so it will be a while before this one gets moved on to someone else but my 9 year old has a good interest in my collection and I reckon he will be ahead of you in the will stakes, sorry mark Regards Ken

27th March 2018, 12:27 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	I understand and will cry quietly- Very nice acquisition either way. Hoping to add a naval spadroon to my collection some day. You are lucky and fortunate to have someone that values your collection. My two daughters and their boyfriends have no interest. Sigh... Mark

29th March 2018, 10:08 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Wayne, what is the length of the sword you posted? It looks like a shorter blade; a perfect connection to onboard sea use! Also, how about a pic of that eagle head American sword? Unless you posted it in the past and I missed it? Mark

30th March 2018, 08:09 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I don't think anyone has implied that sword knots were knot () universal, or confined to naval use. You landlubbers are just as likely to drop something as us naval types, more so if you are on a horse. A ring can, thru wear or trauma, break off any time after it was out of serve and the sword knot crumbled to dust, thus leaving us with a hole that may have once been occupied. I do think most if not all swords in service would have had an appropriate sword knot during their active service life, whatever their service branch, as they do now. Even the helmet pommeled cross guard one. Hotspur has a very cool collection by the way. Very nice swords all.

30th March 2018, 09:45 PM	#14
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Sword knots were mentioned as required gear, even on foot, in some manuals throughout the 19th century. I mention knots not necessarily naval, as it becomes a descriptive. I had carried it for a long time myself, from a single book phrase. Cheers GC

31st March 2018, 05:56 AM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks, Glenn, for coming in on this one. Love the excellent specimens you posted as well. Any input on when the actual hole/ring became popular. I used to have an old source book (God knows where I put it) that claimed this was something that became popular in the last decade of the 18th. Your thoughts? Mark

31st March 2018, 08:21 PM	#16
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	The implementation of the rings does seem to be the last decade(s) of the 18th century into the 19th but in general, to me it seems just an extra. That we saw the castings with ample space to drill for a ring and a majority not added makes it an option, something a patron asked for or elected from stock. With slots and holes continuing on a lot of hilts, those methods seem more lasting and secure. A ring not allowing for much width of what we see for ribbon like knots. A ring affording for little more than a braided cord, what have you. Cheers GC

31st March 2018, 09:16 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I agree, one reason i have not yet found a knot that sets well on it, the one photo i found with a wide strap on one looked awful. A round cord like on the std. naval nots would be better, but the std. ones are still a bit too fat. Flat ones thru the slot on a 1796 LC look fine tho... I've seen a braided leather round cord (about 3mm dia. cord) knot in brown with a ball knot termination that looked like it's be fine for a hanger, it was being sold as an original cutlass lanyard for more than some of my swords cost.