black and white blades

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2006, 07:56 PM

Something common with Congo blades but also seen else where in Africa. I have Somali examples. I do not think it has been discussed before in detail, there has been some mention. Age does not seem to be relevant, most old photographs show clean white blades with some two tone finished weapons. I know discussion is difficult without field research but has anybody come across any information. Could it be simply fashion, personal choice, particular regional smiths and finishers, rank? Are there black blades from other parts of the world ?

S.Al-Anizi · 12th July 2006, 08:16 PM

There are the Chevron pattern welded Indian blades. Not quite rare. As for black blades, Persian wootz is usually bluish/blackish.

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2006, 08:33 PM

There are indeed. The chevron blades I have not seen close up. Is the chevron iron scale or a stain? to me it looks like a stain. Obviously decorative and clever. These picture of a ww2 machete and a NATO survival knife are black possibly for two reasons. Anti reflection and cheap finishing, though the finish on the NATO knife does not look cheap. The anti reflection is surely in many cases a good idea. I have a North African knife, well made but strangely left dull but deliberate fine use of a file. If fighting in a jungle environment the last thing you need is a shaft of sunlight giving away your position, untill you are ready for your ambush or charge on a village.

Lew · 12th July 2006, 08:47 PM

Here is a Shona dagger circa 1930s with a black and white blade.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2006, 08:51 PM

The very sharp contrast here must be purely decorative, very pretty.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th July 2006, 09:30 PM

Hi Tim,
If you are interested in the chevron blades I would suggest that you make a search, I am sure you will find something.
Jens

Tim Simmons · 12th July 2006, 09:36 PM

Yes indeed, maybe it is iron scale, which makes it even more clever. Possibly the use of clay?

Jens Nordlunde · 12th July 2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Yes indeed, maybe it is iron scale, which makes it even more clever. Possibly the use of clay?

What do you mean???

Rick · 12th July 2006, 10:25 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000420.html

Montino Bourbon · 13th July 2006, 12:10 AM

Pictures from the link don't display

Rick · 13th July 2006, 01:22 AM

I know but I was hoping Tim would get the concept from Jim's post .
Or Figiel's book .

Tim Simmons · 13th July 2006, 12:13 PM

I think the chevrons on this blade of Jen's. Are obtained by the use of clay, applied to the blade as a heat resist. Rather like the Japanese do to protect the cutting edge while still working with heat on the rest of the sword. Look closely and you can see the edges of the chevrons are quite uneven as it must be rather difficult to get nice sharp edges on the clay that covers the white parts of the blade. The clever part is in the eye of the smith, to know just how much heat is needed to form the black iron scale without over heating the whole blade.

Iron scale is the thin black film which forms on the surface of iron/steel in the process of forging. It is magnetic oxide of iron, Fe 304, apparently, I am no boffin.

I would think it most unlikely that the blade is made black and then the white exposed by removing the scale, as what appears to happen in the case of African metalwork.

As for a wax resist, I can only see that work when using chemicals as a stain or when using acid. Wax or laqueur resists facilitate fine work. The chevrons are not what you would call fine.

B.I · 13th July 2006, 06:42 PM

hi,
on the chevron blades, i would have to disagree with what has been said (also that stated by rawson/pant/fiegel). all the examples i have seen have been made from seperate billets of steel and pattern-welded steel, skillfully joined together. these all seem (in my humble opinion) to be 19thC, and not any earlier. both fiegel and pant took their dating from rawson, who placed a 17thC date based on the excample in the V&A. there are no accession records, nor further info on this particular sword, so the dating was based on his own opinion. i dont think that particular blade can date any earlier than 19th, and it clearly shows evidence of being constructed from these seperate pieces, as do all the others i've seen. i cant speak for pants example, but fiegels definately was. hopefully jens will tell us how his piece is made.
attached is a sword i once owned, which shows the join.
i am sure that if any of these swords were used as a sword should, they would shatter into pieces (an expensive experiment). they were a bladesmith showing off and made for decorative use only.
of course, tim could be right in his theory, but i have never seen evidence of it so far. the only time i saw something close, was from a disreputable english dealer who attempted to mask off chevrons onto a pattern-welded blade, in an attempt to decieve. luckily, the job done was as bad as his reputation :-)

Tim Simmons · 13th July 2006, 07:06 PM

The chevrons on this blade appear quite different to the first example. Much tighter in form and there is less contrast. As we can see seperate pieces of steel. However I still think the first example is iron scale, remember I did suggest this was more of a decorative/display sword in the original post. The use of clay as a heat shield is a fact in Japanese sword making and I can see no reason why under the right skilled hand it could not be used to make patterns, after all Japanese swords are not known for shattering.

B.I · 13th July 2006, 07:26 PM

hi tim,
you may be right, that this process was used, but i still dont think it was in this particular case. it has been some time since i saw the sword that jens owns, but i am sure (almost positive) that if it was of a different construction to the pieces i consider 'normal' chevrons, then this would have stuck in my memory. no, i feel it too was made from different billets. it is unusual, in that the first section is 'lengthened' and the chevrons are not even all the way along the blade. also, i played with the image i posted, in order to enhance what was blurred. from a distance, you would not notice these join marks. also, with age and polishing, they tend to disappear.
as far as i am aware, clay heat treatments were not really adopted in india, but this isnt my field (metallurgy) so maybe i am wrong. all the accounts i have read tend to concentrate more on wootz, as this was particular to india and so of recordable interest to the europeans over there. the indians infuriatingly used a traditional approach to bladesmithing, which never changed throughout centuries (annoying from a dating point of view). these chevron swords were completely different to these traditions, which is partly why i date them to the latter half of the 19thC, when the bladesmiths began to be recognised within the durbars and european led 'competitions'. these events brought out the best and gave these smiths a chance to show their true abilities.
in my last post, i was more critical of the dating used for these pieces, than the process (or meant to be). but, this too, is just a specualtive opinion.
as i said, hopefully jens will pipe in and let us know for sure.

Tim Simmons · 13th July 2006, 07:39 PM

Yes we need Jens to provide some good pictures. In my opinion to weld such shacky chevrons into such a regular sword is super human unless they did it like the Incas laid stone blocks.

Lew · 13th July 2006, 07:46 PM

Chevron patterned blades at least the few I have seen and held have blades that are welded in alternating segments using two types of steel. These blades are strictly for show in my opinion the blade would snap if it was ever used in combat.

Lew

Jens Nordlunde · 14th July 2006, 05:17 PM

Detail of the blade attached. I have heard about the wax treatment, but I have never heard about the clay treatment being used in India - to be quite honest, I have never heard about the clay treatment.

Tim Simmons · 14th July 2006, 06:01 PM

Thanks jens that is a great picture. I think is remarkable the skill in welding such irregular chevrons. I do not know much about the use of clay except that it is done in Japan and although very clever people the idea seems to practical to be exclusively theirs.

Has anyone more weapons black from the iron scale?

12th July 2006, 07:56 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	black and white blades Something common with Congo blades but also seen else where in Africa. I have Somali examples. I do not think it has been discussed before in detail, there has been some mention. Age does not seem to be relevant, most old photographs show clean white blades with some two tone finished weapons. I know discussion is difficult without field research but has anybody come across any information. Could it be simply fashion, personal choice, particular regional smiths and finishers, rank? Are there black blades from other parts of the world ?

12th July 2006, 08:33 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	There are indeed. The chevron blades I have not seen close up. Is the chevron iron scale or a stain? to me it looks like a stain. Obviously decorative and clever. These picture of a ww2 machete and a NATO survival knife are black possibly for two reasons. Anti reflection and cheap finishing, though the finish on the NATO knife does not look cheap. The anti reflection is surely in many cases a good idea. I have a North African knife, well made but strangely left dull but deliberate fine use of a file. If fighting in a jungle environment the last thing you need is a shaft of sunlight giving away your position, untill you are ready for your ambush or charge on a village. Attached Images

12th July 2006, 08:47 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is a Shona dagger circa 1930s with a black and white blade. Lew Attached Images

12th July 2006, 10:25 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,284	Tim http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000420.html

13th July 2006, 12:10 AM	#10
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Pictures from the link don't display Pictures from the link don't display

12th July 2006, 08:16 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	There are the Chevron pattern welded Indian blades. Not quite rare. As for black blades, Persian wootz is usually bluish/blackish.

12th July 2006, 08:51 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	The very sharp contrast here must be purely decorative, very pretty.

12th July 2006, 09:30 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Tim, If you are interested in the chevron blades I would suggest that you make a search, I am sure you will find something. Jens

12th July 2006, 09:36 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	Yes indeed, maybe it is iron scale, which makes it even more clever. Possibly the use of clay?

13th July 2006, 01:22 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,284	I know but I was hoping Tim would get the concept from Jim's post . Or Figiel's book .

13th July 2006, 12:13 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	I think the chevrons on this blade of Jen's. Are obtained by the use of clay, applied to the blade as a heat resist. Rather like the Japanese do to protect the cutting edge while still working with heat on the rest of the sword. Look closely and you can see the edges of the chevrons are quite uneven as it must be rather difficult to get nice sharp edges on the clay that covers the white parts of the blade. The clever part is in the eye of the smith, to know just how much heat is needed to form the black iron scale without over heating the whole blade. Iron scale is the thin black film which forms on the surface of iron/steel in the process of forging. It is magnetic oxide of iron, Fe 304, apparently, I am no boffin. I would think it most unlikely that the blade is made black and then the white exposed by removing the scale, as what appears to happen in the case of African metalwork. As for a wax resist, I can only see that work when using chemicals as a stain or when using acid. Wax or laqueur resists facilitate fine work. The chevrons are not what you would call fine. Attached Images

13th July 2006, 06:42 PM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, on the chevron blades, i would have to disagree with what has been said (also that stated by rawson/pant/fiegel). all the examples i have seen have been made from seperate billets of steel and pattern-welded steel, skillfully joined together. these all seem (in my humble opinion) to be 19thC, and not any earlier. both fiegel and pant took their dating from rawson, who placed a 17thC date based on the excample in the V&A. there are no accession records, nor further info on this particular sword, so the dating was based on his own opinion. i dont think that particular blade can date any earlier than 19th, and it clearly shows evidence of being constructed from these seperate pieces, as do all the others i've seen. i cant speak for pants example, but fiegels definately was. hopefully jens will tell us how his piece is made. attached is a sword i once owned, which shows the join. i am sure that if any of these swords were used as a sword should, they would shatter into pieces (an expensive experiment). they were a bladesmith showing off and made for decorative use only. of course, tim could be right in his theory, but i have never seen evidence of it so far. the only time i saw something close, was from a disreputable english dealer who attempted to mask off chevrons onto a pattern-welded blade, in an attempt to decieve. luckily, the job done was as bad as his reputation :-) Attached Images

13th July 2006, 07:06 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	The chevrons on this blade appear quite different to the first example. Much tighter in form and there is less contrast. As we can see seperate pieces of steel. However I still think the first example is iron scale, remember I did suggest this was more of a decorative/display sword in the original post. The use of clay as a heat shield is a fact in Japanese sword making and I can see no reason why under the right skilled hand it could not be used to make patterns, after all Japanese swords are not known for shattering.

13th July 2006, 07:26 PM	#15
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi tim, you may be right, that this process was used, but i still dont think it was in this particular case. it has been some time since i saw the sword that jens owns, but i am sure (almost positive) that if it was of a different construction to the pieces i consider 'normal' chevrons, then this would have stuck in my memory. no, i feel it too was made from different billets. it is unusual, in that the first section is 'lengthened' and the chevrons are not even all the way along the blade. also, i played with the image i posted, in order to enhance what was blurred. from a distance, you would not notice these join marks. also, with age and polishing, they tend to disappear. as far as i am aware, clay heat treatments were not really adopted in india, but this isnt my field (metallurgy) so maybe i am wrong. all the accounts i have read tend to concentrate more on wootz, as this was particular to india and so of recordable interest to the europeans over there. the indians infuriatingly used a traditional approach to bladesmithing, which never changed throughout centuries (annoying from a dating point of view). these chevron swords were completely different to these traditions, which is partly why i date them to the latter half of the 19thC, when the bladesmiths began to be recognised within the durbars and european led 'competitions'. these events brought out the best and gave these smiths a chance to show their true abilities. in my last post, i was more critical of the dating used for these pieces, than the process (or meant to be). but, this too, is just a specualtive opinion. as i said, hopefully jens will pipe in and let us know for sure.

13th July 2006, 07:39 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	Yes we need Jens to provide some good pictures. In my opinion to weld such shacky chevrons into such a regular sword is super human unless they did it like the Incas laid stone blocks.

13th July 2006, 07:46 PM	#17
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Chevron patterned blades at least the few I have seen and held have blades that are welded in alternating segments using two types of steel. These blades are strictly for show in my opinion the blade would snap if it was ever used in combat. Lew

14th July 2006, 05:17 PM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Detail of the blade attached. I have heard about the wax treatment, but I have never heard about the clay treatment being used in India - to be quite honest, I have never heard about the clay treatment. Attached Images

14th July 2006, 06:01 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,771	Thanks jens that is a great picture. I think is remarkable the skill in welding such irregular chevrons. I do not know much about the use of clay except that it is done in Japan and although very clever people the idea seems to practical to be exclusively theirs. Has anyone more weapons black from the iron scale?