Indian folding knives

ariel · 21st November 2011, 01:45 PM

Another forum ( Russian) has a heated argument whether Chaqu, an Indian/Persian folding knife, is a native invention or a copy of European implements.
The only mention of it that I am aware of is in Egerton's picture from Ain-i-Akbari, 16 century. This is well before the British arrival to India, and barely 100 years after Vasco da Gama's contact with S. Indian kingdoms.. The picture is primitive, and precise identification of specific features is difficult.
Does anybody know of any good evidence of the presence of Chaqus in India before contact with the europeans? Any truly old examples of Persian, Afghani or Turkic/Mongolian folding knives preceding 16th century?
Anything in Tanavoli's collection ( I have no copy)?
Much obliged for any info.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2011, 02:13 PM

Ariel,

James Allen and Brian Guilmour: Persian Steel. The Tanavoli Collection, Oxford University Press 2000.

A number of folding knives are shown, but they are all 19th century, and I don’t remember if older folding knives are mentioned in the text. Attached is the oldest one shown, dated AH 1221 (AD 1806-7).

Sorry I could not be of more help.

Jens

Runjeet Singh · 26th November 2011, 02:24 PM

Folding knives of a sort, I have had these for a while. I believe they are South Indian Betel Nut knives, probably 18th Century, if not earlier. Pictured next to an Iphone for indication of size.

I have seen South Indian/Sri Lankan betel nut folding knives which I would consider 17th and 18th Century in the past. Some information on those lies in the book 'Ancient Swords Daggers and Knives in Sri Lanakan Museums' by Silva and Wikramsinghe.

Regards,
Runjeet

ariel · 26th November 2011, 04:15 PM

Thanks a lot.
Any known folding knives before the arrival of europeans? If not acual examples, at least a mention of them.

Sajen · 26th November 2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runjeet Singh

Folding knives of a sort, I have had these for a while. I believe they are South Indian Betel Nut knives, probably 18th Century, if not earlier. Pictured next to an Iphone for indication of size.

I have seen South Indian/Sri Lankan betel nut folding knives which I would consider 17th and 18th Century in the past. Some information on those lies in the book 'Ancient Swords Daggers and Knives in Sri Lanakan Museums' by Silva and Wikramsinghe.

Regards,
Runjeet

I don't think that this are Betel knives, the betel nut is to hard that you can cut it with this knifes. Is it possible that this are old opium knifes?

Regards,

Detlef

laEspadaAncha · 26th November 2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks a lot.
Any known folding knives before the arrival of europeans? If not acual examples, at least a mention of them.

I would think the old adage of form following function combined with the age-old practice of writing texts on (banana?) leaves would together support the likely of existence of such knives before European contact... Maybe the answer would more likely lie in the research of archaic practices of Brahmin scribes than in the search for a knife-reference per say?

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2011, 10:50 PM

Excellent call Chris!!!!
Often the information needed is found in literature outside the expected arms topics, in this case having more to do with the function performed than the implement itself. Spot on sir!!!

Excellent and fascinating illustration Jens of that compound knife.

All best,
Jim

fearn · 27th November 2011, 03:54 AM

Hi All,

If I remember rightly,

--The Romans created the first folding knives
--The Romans were definitely in contact with India.

If these are both correct, I'm not sure whether we'll ever find evidence of indigenous Indian folding knives older than the Roman ones. But wouldn't it be cool if we did.

Best,

F

ariel · 27th November 2011, 06:34 AM

Thanks to the Forumites for the answers. I am waiting for more:-)

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2011, 09:00 PM

Good topic and excellent suggestions and additions.
The term 'chaqu' is yet another seemingly generic term for 'knife' from apparant Turkish etymology, which according to Egerton is applied to these 'clasp' knives. The clasp knife itself is better known colloquially as a folding knife, more modernly jack or pocket knives in the smaller size utility knives.

Pant (p.155) describes most chaqus in India as having been English products from as early as 17th c. AD. Such clasp knives were being produced in Sheffield around 1650s reaching larger scale production c.1700. With the English East India Co. being formed in 1600, and arranging for factories for commerce established (Surat 1637, Ft.St.George 1639) it seems quite plausible that such knives may have been present in these contact areas in India with English sailors. This would correspond well with Pant's suggestion of clasp knives in India as early as the 17th century.

More familiar however are the navajas of Andalusian Spain and thier immense notariety with the Gypsies or Gitanos, whose origins interestingly come from regions in North India. The folding razor and folding knife accordingly are well known in pre Roman times in Spain, as well as more widely in the Roman Empire (the term 'navaja' comes from Lat. novacula =razor). This offers the suggestion that the concept of a folding knife, certainly as an implement, must have been known in areas of Roman contact in early times. The idea of a folding knife as a weapon did not really become effective until the locking devices on navajas in the 18th century as far as I know.

Naturally, this does not provide examples as requested for resolving whether this is an Indo-Persian origin for the weapon, but simply offers plausible thoughts for when and how it may have developed in India. Personally my own impression is that despite being known as a novelty, such knives likely did not gain popularity until influx of commercial contact increased the awareness of them.

Runjeet Singh · 28th November 2011, 10:11 AM

Point taken Detlef. Sounds like you have experience in Betel Nuts!

The knife pictured by Chris is the kind of example mentioned in the book by Silva and Wikramsinghe, but no mention of really early ones. I do believe it is of traditional South Indian/Sri Lankan design, it is just finding the reference that may be difficult! I do have a nice early one somewhere with an inscription (just don't ask me to find it!), but not earlier than 17th Century

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2011, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks a lot.
Any known folding knives before the arrival of europeans? If not acual examples, at least a mention of them.

Curious about the discussion on the other forum, any support, evidence or examples? or just another 'heated discussion' void of substance

Sajen · 29th November 2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runjeet Singh

Point taken Detlef. Sounds like you have experience in Betel Nuts!

Yes Runjeet Singh, have been to India and tried it. Also from my travels to Indonesia I know how hard is the betel nut when dried. And I have a small collection of betel knifes from India and Indonesia.

Regards,

Detlef

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2011, 05:51 AM

Well guess thats it.....betel nuts

21st November 2011, 01:45 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian folding knives Another forum ( Russian) has a heated argument whether Chaqu, an Indian/Persian folding knife, is a native invention or a copy of European implements. The only mention of it that I am aware of is in Egerton's picture from Ain-i-Akbari, 16 century. This is well before the British arrival to India, and barely 100 years after Vasco da Gama's contact with S. Indian kingdoms.. The picture is primitive, and precise identification of specific features is difficult. Does anybody know of any good evidence of the presence of Chaqus in India before contact with the europeans? Any truly old examples of Persian, Afghani or Turkic/Mongolian folding knives preceding 16th century? Anything in Tanavoli's collection ( I have no copy)? Much obliged for any info.

21st November 2011, 02:13 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, James Allen and Brian Guilmour: Persian Steel. The Tanavoli Collection, Oxford University Press 2000. A number of folding knives are shown, but they are all 19th century, and I don’t remember if older folding knives are mentioned in the text. Attached is the oldest one shown, dated AH 1221 (AD 1806-7). Sorry I could not be of more help. Jens Attached Images

26th November 2011, 02:24 PM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Folding knives of a sort, I have had these for a while. I believe they are South Indian Betel Nut knives, probably 18th Century, if not earlier. Pictured next to an Iphone for indication of size. I have seen South Indian/Sri Lankan betel nut folding knives which I would consider 17th and 18th Century in the past. Some information on those lies in the book 'Ancient Swords Daggers and Knives in Sri Lanakan Museums' by Silva and Wikramsinghe. Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

26th November 2011, 04:15 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks a lot. Any known folding knives before the arrival of europeans? If not acual examples, at least a mention of them.

26th November 2011, 10:50 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Excellent call Chris!!!! Often the information needed is found in literature outside the expected arms topics, in this case having more to do with the function performed than the implement itself. Spot on sir!!! Excellent and fascinating illustration Jens of that compound knife. All best, Jim

27th November 2011, 03:54 AM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, If I remember rightly, --The Romans created the first folding knives --The Romans were definitely in contact with India. If these are both correct, I'm not sure whether we'll ever find evidence of indigenous Indian folding knives older than the Roman ones. But wouldn't it be cool if we did. Best, F

27th November 2011, 06:34 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks to the Forumites for the answers. I am waiting for more:-)

27th November 2011, 09:00 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Good topic and excellent suggestions and additions. The term 'chaqu' is yet another seemingly generic term for 'knife' from apparant Turkish etymology, which according to Egerton is applied to these 'clasp' knives. The clasp knife itself is better known colloquially as a folding knife, more modernly jack or pocket knives in the smaller size utility knives. Pant (p.155) describes most chaqus in India as having been English products from as early as 17th c. AD. Such clasp knives were being produced in Sheffield around 1650s reaching larger scale production c.1700. With the English East India Co. being formed in 1600, and arranging for factories for commerce established (Surat 1637, Ft.St.George 1639) it seems quite plausible that such knives may have been present in these contact areas in India with English sailors. This would correspond well with Pant's suggestion of clasp knives in India as early as the 17th century. More familiar however are the navajas of Andalusian Spain and thier immense notariety with the Gypsies or Gitanos, whose origins interestingly come from regions in North India. The folding razor and folding knife accordingly are well known in pre Roman times in Spain, as well as more widely in the Roman Empire (the term 'navaja' comes from Lat. novacula =razor). This offers the suggestion that the concept of a folding knife, certainly as an implement, must have been known in areas of Roman contact in early times. The idea of a folding knife as a weapon did not really become effective until the locking devices on navajas in the 18th century as far as I know. Naturally, this does not provide examples as requested for resolving whether this is an Indo-Persian origin for the weapon, but simply offers plausible thoughts for when and how it may have developed in India. Personally my own impression is that despite being known as a novelty, such knives likely did not gain popularity until influx of commercial contact increased the awareness of them.

28th November 2011, 10:11 AM	#11
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Point taken Detlef. Sounds like you have experience in Betel Nuts! The knife pictured by Chris is the kind of example mentioned in the book by Silva and Wikramsinghe, but no mention of really early ones. I do believe it is of traditional South Indian/Sri Lankan design, it is just finding the reference that may be difficult! I do have a nice early one somewhere with an inscription (just don't ask me to find it!), but not earlier than 17th Century

1st December 2011, 05:51 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Well guess thats it.....betel nuts