Designing as a variation of tradition

Antonio Cejunior · 18th July 2005, 12:23 AM

Greetings everyone from this Fantastic forum

Been absent for a while in lack of a topic.

Some of you, gentlemen, may remember my visit to
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/visit.aranyik.htm Aranyk which Mark so kindly linked to his website.

That blade I bought there at LungSom has meantime been heat treated and the fittings were done here in Macau, and it is now in the final stages of completion.

Here's the concept.

and here is the blade after heat treatment

and finally the blade and the almost-finished scabbard, superb work by Nathan Creel.

I will now go on in the next post

Andrew · 18th July 2005, 12:30 AM

That looks fantastic, Antonio! I always love to see your concepts go from digitized renderings to finished sword.

When you have the time, could you share with us the dimensions, specs and materials used?

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. Thank you for sharing this with us, my friend.

Antonio Cejunior · 18th July 2005, 12:40 AM

The entire concept formed in my mind almost the moment I was getting back in the van that took us from Lung Som's.

Being almost totally incapable of woodworking, and not being a collector of antiques, while I admire them immensely, I have this urge to input my own concepts to almost everything, be it contemporary sword mountings, or furniture or other areas of design.

As my incursion into the sword world became more consistent I have noticed a hybridation coming from the circulation of information.

The sequential transformation of the shape of a traditional bowie into a knife that incorporates different and alien materials to the original (damascus, shape, lack of guard, handle decoration) and so very often the display of the differential heat treatment.

It seems that we are somehow viewing the antiques of tomorrow, where the story will be different.

Any thoughts about his later issue? That's how I define design: conceiving today the past of tomorrow.

Very best to everyone

Antonio Cejunior · 18th July 2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

That looks fantastic, Antonio! I always love to see your concepts go from digitized renderings to finished sword.

When you have the time, could you share with us the dimensions, specs and materials used?

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. Thank you for sharing this with us, my friend.

Hi Andrew

Thank you. It is most kind of you.
You were really fast at posting

I was still gathering my thoughts

and typing.

I am honored for your words. The blade is 25 inches long but I don't have it with me yet. The handle is about 11 to 12 inches to give the blade a rocking motion when handled. I believe the scabbard will be about 28 inches, considering the fish tail style that I borrowed from some silver covered dhas I was have seen.

I hope to have it with me in August. Nathan Creel did a fantastic job with the mountings and the scabbard. I will surely post it here. I will still be doing the polish myself

Andrew, please check your PM in a little while

Thank you once more for the kind words.

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2005, 08:17 PM

Hello Antonio,
While I have been entirely focused on the study of historical antique edged weapons for many years, and have admittedly a distinct aversion to modern and reproduction forms....I am profoundly overwhelmed at the beauty of these pieces!! Your magnificent work truly keeps the art of edged weapons alive...an aspect I had not considered, and is wonderfully worded in your statement on the designs of today becoming tomorrows antiques.
Bravo Sir!!!
All the very best,
Jim

Antonio Cejunior · 18th July 2005, 08:45 PM

Hi Jim,
Thank you for your kind words.

I often recall and bear in mind that once, a stone was hit with another stone and sharp edges appeared on it. Then some kind of heavenly metal was sharpened the same way until bronze casting was used, only again to be replaced by iron, then steel, shape after shape.
If we bear this in mind we come to the inevitable conclusion that the history of mankind is that of successive oblivions or replacements. Hence that the Past of our Present can be seen with different eyes. Before we had the Migration Era. People are migrating nowadays at incredible rates. In China alone, at least 400 million migrated from the poorer interior to the more developped coastal cities. The USA is a nation of immigrants. We all have immigrated from truth to truth in history, in objects, in beliefs. What we today cherish as an ethnic antique may be replaced for another type of ethnic concept, for a Han dha surely suffered the shape influence of the Chinese, eventually. I am sorry for not being learned enough to know the evolution of ethnic weapons as we call them today, for they are beautiful.
But somehow, at any given moment, everyone is making history happen.

Very best regards

Threetemper · 19th July 2005, 12:36 AM

Beautiful scabbard and grip completion. I see the extended tang worked out well.

Antonio Cejunior · 19th July 2005, 12:53 AM

Thank you Threetemper. Indeed there was a reason for the extended tang under a non traditional mounting

.

I have been overworking and forgot to mention the author of the work:
Nathan Creel who did my other Dha.

It is my fault not to have mentioned Nathan right away. My bad

Tim Simmons · 20th July 2005, 08:35 PM

This is the handle I made on a shasqa for a Mr Big in Kazakstan. I only work in wax but as you can see it is a pretty important part, it is then finnished and assembled by other craftsmen. I have great difficulty in getting photos of finnished work, unfortunately this is all I have, no pics of the blade or scabbard. The scabbard was steel lined and covered in enameled silver section of simmilar patterns to the blade. The name on the blade is Firmin and sons plc est 1677 though talking to the silversmith I think it was actually made in Germany. What you see here is a snow leopard, silver gilt, pearls, and blue enamel. The fuller is gilt and blued. Tim

RhysMichael · 20th July 2005, 08:49 PM

Antonio,
I think that dha is going to look great when finished , you have a good eye for putting things together. Please let us see the finished sword

Antonio Cejunior · 20th July 2005, 11:43 PM

Very nice carving Tim.

Thank you so much for sharing.
There must be some very rich people in Kazakstan

Best

Antonio Cejunior · 20th July 2005, 11:49 PM

Hi RhysMichael,

Thank you for the kind words. I actually can't wait to see it finished.

Nathan is a very good craftsman and smith. It is my privilege that he has accepted to do the woodwork and mounting.
I will surely place a review here, although some of the earlier steps were not photographically documented because of lack of batteries in the camera.
But Nathan's work is superb IMHO.

Tim Simmons · 21st July 2005, 09:16 AM

All I know is that there is only one Mr Big in Kazakstan and these kind of toys tend to be gifts that curry favour, what ever next

Tim

Antonio Cejunior · 21st July 2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

All I know is that there is only one Mr Big in Kazakstan and these kind of toys tend to be gifts that curry favour, what ever next

Tim

Never been to Kazakstan, so couldn't know Mr. Big.

jmings · 21st July 2005, 06:22 PM

Mr. Antonio Cejunior, Sir;

That dha is truly a work of wonder. Are you going to design display stand for it?

BTW, what a pleasurte it is to see you in this forum as well as your usual haunts.

Antonio Cejunior · 21st July 2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmings

Mr. Antonio Cejunior, Sir;

That dha is truly a work of wonder. Are you going to design display stand for it?

BTW, what a pleasurte it is to see you in this forum as well as your usual haunts.

Hi Jmings

Please just call me Antonio. I feel much more comfortable

Your words are most kind. Nathan is a fantastic woodworker on top of his smith work. He once sent me a picture of an entire bookshelf lacquered in white that he did for his home. I was amazed.

Uh oh, I feel we know each other but I am caught by surprise

Thank you

jmings · 22nd July 2005, 01:57 AM

My Dear Antonio;

We have conversed on http://forums.swordforum.com about a few subjects, the last as I recall was akido barehanded defence against a sword. But have also included esthetics and more.

BTW, how's your daughter's visit going?

I am still designing and building sword stands, "Every day getting better and better" but I admit to suffering the Linus Syndrome where in a Peanuts strip by the late Charles Shultz is surrounded by pens and pencils and asked why he has so many replies that "One of these should have good handwriting." At present I am awaiting my 1/4" shank router bits and have a mental list of the tools "I've just got to have", but since I filed bankruptsy yesterday it looks like I will have to make do until I can sell some on e-bay.

Jerry "The Dinosaur" Mings

Antonio Cejunior · 22nd July 2005, 03:02 AM

Dear Jerry,

One of the things thathappen to me is that I goof a lot.

The French call it gaffe.
Please do not take offense. Unless you guide me to a specific post please use my cejunior@macau.ctm.net email I'll be able to recognize.
I surely feel embarassed and again humbly apologize.

I'm sure that the moment you will point me out the barehands thread I will slap my forehead as usual and say of course!!!

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I surely hope it improves quickly.

Oh, my daughter,

she is not visiting. She's working in a law firm here.
My apologies again, and be sure to forgive me. My life is full of goofs, including my own wife's name, if this serves as a consolation...

Time to rush to the Museum

Kindest regards,
Antonio *the goofer*

jmings · 22nd July 2005, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Dear Jerry,

One of the things thathappen to me is that I goof a lot.

The French call it gaffe.
Please do not take offense. Unless you guide me to a specific post please use my cejunior@macau.ctm.net email I'll be able to recognize.
I surely feel embarassed and again humbly apologize.

I'm sure that the moment you will point me out the barehands thread I will slap my forehead as usual and say of course!!!

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...0&pagenumber=2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I surely hope it improves quickly.

Oh, my daughter,

she is not visiting. She's working in a law firm here.
My apologies again, and be sure to forgive me. My life is full of goofs, including my own wife's name, if this serves as a consolation...

Time to rush to the Museum

Kindest regards,
Antonio *the goofer*

I fear I go beyond gaffe all the way to bouffon

or even to palhaço

Antonio Cejunior · 22nd July 2005, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmings

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...0&pagenumber=2

I fear I go beyond gaffe all the way to bouffon

or even to palhaço

Dear Jerry, (slapping the forehead)

But of course...

See what I mean? Jeeeezz, this is really embarassing.
I loved that one on Carnegie Hall

Thank you so much for helping a poor lost fella.
Kindest regards.

Antonio

Tim Simmons · 5th August 2005, 05:37 PM

At last I have a complete picture of this sword. I hope it is okay to show it in this thread, it is a variation of tradition and quite attractive even if I say so myself. Tim

Antonio Cejunior · 5th August 2005, 05:56 PM

Very nice indeed Tim.
Thank you very much for sharing

Is the blade custom made? I see those grooves. I'm not versed in this type of blade, so apologies for asking.

Best regards,
Antonio

Tim Simmons · 5th August 2005, 06:34 PM

Hello Antonio,
Although this was made as a shashka, I feel the fullered blade has a strong resemblance to British or Prussian heavy cavalry sabres of the Waterloo type. Tim

Antonio Cejunior · 29th August 2005, 04:22 PM

Hi Everyone,

I just thought I would update you all with the finished mountings by Nathan Creel.

It came out very nice IMHO.

Here is some more detail

I think the grooves look wonderful and provide a great grip.

Now the worse dreaded task for me: Polishing.

It will take weeks, with my schedule. But it tests my patience

Cheers everyone

18th July 2005, 12:23 AM	#1
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Designing as a variation of tradition Greetings everyone from this Fantastic forum Been absent for a while in lack of a topic. Some of you, gentlemen, may remember my visit to http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/visit.aranyik.htm Aranyk which Mark so kindly linked to his website. That blade I bought there at LungSom has meantime been heat treated and the fittings were done here in Macau, and it is now in the final stages of completion. Here's the concept. and here is the blade after heat treatment and finally the blade and the almost-finished scabbard, superb work by Nathan Creel. I will now go on in the next post

19th July 2005, 12:36 AM	#7
Threetemper Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oakhurst,NJ Posts: 14	Nice day for Dah's Beautiful scabbard and grip completion. I see the extended tang worked out well.

20th July 2005, 08:35 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Blowing my own trumpet This is the handle I made on a shasqa for a Mr Big in Kazakstan. I only work in wax but as you can see it is a pretty important part, it is then finnished and assembled by other craftsmen. I have great difficulty in getting photos of finnished work, unfortunately this is all I have, no pics of the blade or scabbard. The scabbard was steel lined and covered in enameled silver section of simmilar patterns to the blade. The name on the blade is Firmin and sons plc est 1677 though talking to the silversmith I think it was actually made in Germany. What you see here is a snow leopard, silver gilt, pearls, and blue enamel. The fuller is gilt and blued. Tim

22nd July 2005, 01:57 AM	#17
jmings Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tebbetts, Missouri, USA Posts: 49	C'est Moi My Dear Antonio; We have conversed on http://forums.swordforum.com about a few subjects, the last as I recall was akido barehanded defence against a sword. But have also included esthetics and more. BTW, how's your daughter's visit going? I am still designing and building sword stands, "Every day getting better and better" but I admit to suffering the Linus Syndrome where in a Peanuts strip by the late Charles Shultz is surrounded by pens and pencils and asked why he has so many replies that "One of these should have good handwriting." At present I am awaiting my 1/4" shank router bits and have a mental list of the tools "I've just got to have", but since I filed bankruptsy yesterday it looks like I will have to make do until I can sell some on e-bay. Jerry "The Dinosaur" Mings

29th August 2005, 04:22 PM	#24
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Mountings finished and with me Hi Everyone, I just thought I would update you all with the finished mountings by Nathan Creel. It came out very nice IMHO. Here is some more detail I think the grooves look wonderful and provide a great grip. Now the worse dreaded task for me: Polishing. It will take weeks, with my schedule. But it tests my patience Cheers everyone

18th July 2005, 12:30 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That looks fantastic, Antonio! I always love to see your concepts go from digitized renderings to finished sword. When you have the time, could you share with us the dimensions, specs and materials used? I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. Thank you for sharing this with us, my friend.

18th July 2005, 12:40 AM	#3
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	The entire concept formed in my mind almost the moment I was getting back in the van that took us from Lung Som's. Being almost totally incapable of woodworking, and not being a collector of antiques, while I admire them immensely, I have this urge to input my own concepts to almost everything, be it contemporary sword mountings, or furniture or other areas of design. As my incursion into the sword world became more consistent I have noticed a hybridation coming from the circulation of information. The sequential transformation of the shape of a traditional bowie into a knife that incorporates different and alien materials to the original (damascus, shape, lack of guard, handle decoration) and so very often the display of the differential heat treatment. It seems that we are somehow viewing the antiques of tomorrow, where the story will be different. Any thoughts about his later issue? That's how I define design: conceiving today the past of tomorrow. Very best to everyone

18th July 2005, 08:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Hello Antonio, While I have been entirely focused on the study of historical antique edged weapons for many years, and have admittedly a distinct aversion to modern and reproduction forms....I am profoundly overwhelmed at the beauty of these pieces!! Your magnificent work truly keeps the art of edged weapons alive...an aspect I had not considered, and is wonderfully worded in your statement on the designs of today becoming tomorrows antiques. Bravo Sir!!! All the very best, Jim

18th July 2005, 08:45 PM	#6
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Hi Jim, Thank you for your kind words. I often recall and bear in mind that once, a stone was hit with another stone and sharp edges appeared on it. Then some kind of heavenly metal was sharpened the same way until bronze casting was used, only again to be replaced by iron, then steel, shape after shape. If we bear this in mind we come to the inevitable conclusion that the history of mankind is that of successive oblivions or replacements. Hence that the Past of our Present can be seen with different eyes. Before we had the Migration Era. People are migrating nowadays at incredible rates. In China alone, at least 400 million migrated from the poorer interior to the more developped coastal cities. The USA is a nation of immigrants. We all have immigrated from truth to truth in history, in objects, in beliefs. What we today cherish as an ethnic antique may be replaced for another type of ethnic concept, for a Han dha surely suffered the shape influence of the Chinese, eventually. I am sorry for not being learned enough to know the evolution of ethnic weapons as we call them today, for they are beautiful. But somehow, at any given moment, everyone is making history happen. Very best regards

19th July 2005, 12:53 AM	#8
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Thank you Threetemper. Indeed there was a reason for the extended tang under a non traditional mounting . I have been overworking and forgot to mention the author of the work: Nathan Creel who did my other Dha. It is my fault not to have mentioned Nathan right away. My bad

20th July 2005, 08:49 PM	#10
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Antonio, I think that dha is going to look great when finished , you have a good eye for putting things together. Please let us see the finished sword

20th July 2005, 11:43 PM	#11
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Very nice carving Tim. Thank you so much for sharing. There must be some very rich people in Kazakstan Best

20th July 2005, 11:49 PM	#12
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Hi RhysMichael, Thank you for the kind words. I actually can't wait to see it finished. Nathan is a very good craftsman and smith. It is my privilege that he has accepted to do the woodwork and mounting. I will surely place a review here, although some of the earlier steps were not photographically documented because of lack of batteries in the camera. But Nathan's work is superb IMHO.

21st July 2005, 09:16 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	All I know is that there is only one Mr Big in Kazakstan and these kind of toys tend to be gifts that curry favour, what ever next Tim

21st July 2005, 06:22 PM	#15
jmings Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tebbetts, Missouri, USA Posts: 49	Mr. Antonio Cejunior, Sir; That dha is truly a work of wonder. Are you going to design display stand for it? BTW, what a pleasurte it is to see you in this forum as well as your usual haunts.

22nd July 2005, 03:02 AM	#18
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Dear Jerry, One of the things thathappen to me is that I goof a lot. The French call it gaffe. Please do not take offense. Unless you guide me to a specific post please use my cejunior@macau.ctm.net email I'll be able to recognize. I surely feel embarassed and again humbly apologize. I'm sure that the moment you will point me out the barehands thread I will slap my forehead as usual and say of course!!! I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I surely hope it improves quickly. Oh, my daughter, she is not visiting. She's working in a law firm here. My apologies again, and be sure to forgive me. My life is full of goofs, including my own wife's name, if this serves as a consolation... Time to rush to the Museum Kindest regards, Antonio the goofer

5th August 2005, 05:37 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	At last I have a complete picture of this sword. I hope it is okay to show it in this thread, it is a variation of tradition and quite attractive even if I say so myself. Tim

5th August 2005, 05:56 PM	#22
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Very nice indeed Tim. Thank you very much for sharing Is the blade custom made? I see those grooves. I'm not versed in this type of blade, so apologies for asking. Best regards, Antonio

5th August 2005, 06:34 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello Antonio, Although this was made as a shashka, I feel the fullered blade has a strong resemblance to British or Prussian heavy cavalry sabres of the Waterloo type. Tim