Maranao Sundang

Bill M · 17th June 2008, 07:14 PM

15 wave blade 21 1/2" long
overall length 16 1/4"

A nice well-worn older kris with at least three unusual features. Who can determine/guess what they are?

Lew · 17th June 2008, 07:36 PM

Bill

Where do you find these things

. Very nice I see at the base of the blade there may have been a repair to the tang/pesi you know what I mean guys can anyone elaborate? Still a very sweet sword.

Congrats

Lew

Rick · 17th June 2008, 09:27 PM

Yep, looks like a new tang was keyed into the blade .
The stirrups don't match; the rear one is a later addition .
I'd guess the ratttan bands were a functional addition rather than aesthetic .
I'd be a bit concerned about the corrosion I see between the hilt and blade as this blade has had a serious etch .

It's quite lovely Bill .

Oh yes, did I mention the great pattern on the blade ?!?

David · 18th June 2008, 12:29 AM

I also find the silver work to be unusual in design. I have never seen that "flame" pattern on the "crown" near the pommel and the reprosse work on the ferrule also looks unusual, though i can't really get a good look at it behind the rattan wrapping.

Ferguson · 19th June 2008, 02:38 AM

It's beautiful and interesting!
Steve

Tim Simmons · 20th June 2008, 07:39 PM

I have one of these Kriss. not as fancy and with a straight blade. It has the same tang {replacement?} work and finer to my mind. What bothers me is this idea of a broken or replaced tang when there appears to absolutly no evidence of heavy use on the blade. Surely to damage the tang to the degree of replacing would reflect else where on the weapon

?

A great many broken tangs might suggest rubbish weapons or this is a construction technique

. We do see them rather frequently? with undamaged blades?

Rick · 20th June 2008, 08:08 PM

A sharp blow from the side is about all I can think of that would cause tang failure .

Hey Bill, while you've got your camera out ....
Make with some closeup piccys of the hilt trim willya ?

Also I'd like to hear your comments seeing as how you're the instigator of this thread .

Rick

Bill M · 3rd July 2008, 02:08 AM

I like the unusual pamor, the exceptional condition of the katik (upper and lower) and the repair. (The other side is much smoother.)

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 04:22 AM

Was this sword sold to you as an old kris? If it was, actually it is not. Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished.

This kris is recent due to the incorporations of different designs from different muslim communities. I am pretty sure that this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

Battara · 3rd July 2008, 04:30 AM

I again disagree - the bands appear to have patina, and varnishing is not that uncommon on wood - not a recent creation. Also I have seen and handled the things coming out of Lanao in recent years - this does not match those at all and the blade construction is laminated whereas those from Lanao are monosteel.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 04:55 AM

Bill already said it's a Maranao sword. Maranaos are form Lanao.

Show me a photo of a kris collected years ago with a cherry-varnished handle head. I would love to see it since I believe there were cherry-colored tree/woods before, not red lawaan, that are extinct now and I also believed that resin and some gluey sap were used as varnish because some lumad kids still polish their nails using them.

Battara · 3rd July 2008, 05:26 AM

I did have one years ago from a US vet that fought at the battle of Bud Bagsak in 1915 with the same red color pommel - I will have to look to see if I have a photo....

The narra tree is red on the deeper inside and often it's burl was used to make pommels......

David · 3rd July 2008, 05:31 AM

Well Bill, i don't need to tell you that this is obviously an older kris and that it is certainly not "the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector". I think that any serious collector can see that as well. Judging the age of the kris based on the rattan bands is just ridiculous. It is the blade that one must judge the kris by, not the dress, which has obviously had some repairs and adjustments over the years. I doubt, for instance, that the rattan bands were original to this kris. The pommel my have very well been changed as well. Who knows. We can see that the back asang-asang is newer than the front one. This is the nature of a sword that has seen real use. It has different repairs and different adaptaions from different periods of it's life. It is interesting that the person who linked us to a website of a man standing in front of a wall full of decorative tourist punals which she claimed to be real kris thinks that this kris is a tourist piece.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 07:13 AM

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 07:22 AM

old patina is darker and oftentimes greenish.

I can even see some welding traces.

Alam Shah · 3rd July 2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Yeah, right...

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not

Hmmm... good idea. I guess you'll still a long way off, in old weapons appreciation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

Hmmm... I sense 'something' in your writing... I guess, if an authentic piece that is well-maintain outside the Phillipines, you'll still have your doubt with its authenticity.

.

Oh! btw Bill, that's a nice piece you have there, even with the repair.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 08:01 AM

can you not see the welding dots just above the katik on the second pic?

Now, compare that to the second kris, which I think is old and older.

Now tell me why it's old. Educate me.

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 08:58 AM

also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older. Sharpening a snaky kris with no distinct design or pamor on both sides also makes the area near the center of the blade smooth. the blade just looks new to me.

don't tell me you want me to elaborate more on the handle which is the most problematic one.

kai · 3rd July 2008, 10:10 AM

Hello Miya,

Quote:

also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older.

This blade has been etched with ferric chloride which is more agressive than coconut water or other traditional etchants used in SE Asia.

I agree that a Moro warrior would have kept his kris in better polish and only lightly etched. However, long-time storage has taken its toll with some of the old blades (neglected by US veterans as well as by less blade-savy Filipinos) - so it's quite common to find genuine antique kris with various forms of corrosion; if gently cleaned rather than polished, the surface will look grainy.

Regards,
Kai

baganing_balyan · 3rd July 2008, 10:57 AM

I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

Spunjer · 3rd July 2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

radio shack?

hoy, he meant it was etch recently with ferric chloride.

Quote:

Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished.

here's a kris brought back in 1901

...and panabas in that same collection

see? it's varnished

Bill M · 3rd July 2008, 02:35 PM

Ron,

Meant to say earlier that I am also glad to see you back! You have a lot to contribute.

Rick · 3rd July 2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

radio shack?

ROTFLMAO !!

Great to see you're back Ron ..

Rick

David · 3rd July 2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

hmmm...if only you would...

If you have know interest in antique weapons you are definitely in the wrong place my dear. Stop wasting our time.
We are being trolled and it might be best to just ignore Baganing. She obviously knows nothing about antique weapons and would rather extol the virtues of modern decorative punals then come to any real understanding of real Moro weaponry.
Educate you Baganing? If only i thought you sincerely meant this. IMHO it would seem to be a waste of time and virtual space.

Rick · 3rd July 2008, 08:42 PM

Something occurred to me while pondering these keyed tang replacements .
Let me propose a scenario (always fun

):

Captured weapons in the field; some may have been confiscated but some may also have been destroyed on the spot .
How do you make the kris unusable ?
Break the tang .

A small unit in the field could not afford to be weighed down with every confiscated weapon on a patrol or after a skirmish .

Just musing ..........

nacho · 10th July 2008, 04:30 AM

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

Rick · 10th July 2008, 04:53 PM

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

P.Abrera · 10th July 2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nacho

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

Is this a new exhibit/display? I've not seen more than 5 or 6 of kris and barung that are part of the permanent displays at the Nat'l Museum in Manila?

nacho · 11th July 2008, 05:09 AM

The exhibit is new. It is in the groundfloor of the new Museum (the former Finance Building). There are over a hundred swords (moro, visayan, Luzon), dozens of spears, one round moro shield, bagobo shields, hats, Igorot weapons, war drums, and many more.

When we went there last week the doors of the exhibit room were closed as they were still fixing up part of it. However, we begged an officer of the museum to let us in -- which they graciously did.

They said the exhibit was open two/three months ago. But they want to fix the way they did the displays because right now visitors can reach in and touch the swords (there is glass partition but open on top) -- "and many do".

There is a smaller exhibit of weapons in the old museum building. That's the one with about 5 or 6 kris/barongs.

Battara · 11th July 2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nacho

I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

I suspect that many of these were sent back to the PI from vets here in the US and there was a custom back in the late 1800s to the mid 1900s of polishing up blades from any country to make them shiny. Many Nepalese kora were ruined this way by Victorians polishing out blade engravings. In the US collectors would do the same to PI/Moro pieces and even US Civil War swords. They would even throw away the scabbards of Moro and US Civil War pieces.

This is probably why you see so many shiny blades there in the museum. Also, once captured, the vets did not know to keep the blades in etched condition (if they werent polished),

17th June 2008, 07:14 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Maranao Sundang 15 wave blade 21 1/2" long overall length 16 1/4" A nice well-worn older kris with at least three unusual features. Who can determine/guess what they are? Attached Images

17th June 2008, 09:27 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Yep, looks like a new tang was keyed into the blade . The stirrups don't match; the rear one is a later addition . I'd guess the ratttan bands were a functional addition rather than aesthetic . I'd be a bit concerned about the corrosion I see between the hilt and blade as this blade has had a serious etch . It's quite lovely Bill . Oh yes, did I mention the great pattern on the blade ?!? Last edited by Rick; 17th June 2008 at 09:40 PM.

20th June 2008, 07:39 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Question I have one of these Kriss. not as fancy and with a straight blade. It has the same tang {replacement?} work and finer to my mind. What bothers me is this idea of a broken or replaced tang when there appears to absolutly no evidence of heavy use on the blade. Surely to damage the tang to the degree of replacing would reflect else where on the weapon ? A great many broken tangs might suggest rubbish weapons or this is a construction technique . We do see them rather frequently? with undamaged blades? Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th June 2008 at 08:06 PM. Reason: adding pics

10th July 2008, 04:30 AM	#26
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	grainy blades of older kris I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

11th July 2008, 05:09 AM	#29
nacho Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Makati Posts: 69	1904 St. louis expo collection The exhibit is new. It is in the groundfloor of the new Museum (the former Finance Building). There are over a hundred swords (moro, visayan, Luzon), dozens of spears, one round moro shield, bagobo shields, hats, Igorot weapons, war drums, and many more. When we went there last week the doors of the exhibit room were closed as they were still fixing up part of it. However, we begged an officer of the museum to let us in -- which they graciously did. They said the exhibit was open two/three months ago. But they want to fix the way they did the displays because right now visitors can reach in and touch the swords (there is glass partition but open on top) -- "and many do". There is a smaller exhibit of weapons in the old museum building. That's the one with about 5 or 6 kris/barongs.

17th June 2008, 07:36 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bill Where do you find these things . Very nice I see at the base of the blade there may have been a repair to the tang/pesi you know what I mean guys can anyone elaborate? Still a very sweet sword. Congrats Lew

18th June 2008, 12:29 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	I also find the silver work to be unusual in design. I have never seen that "flame" pattern on the "crown" near the pommel and the reprosse work on the ferrule also looks unusual, though i can't really get a good look at it behind the rattan wrapping.

19th June 2008, 02:38 AM	#5
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	It's beautiful and interesting! Steve

20th June 2008, 08:08 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	A sharp blow from the side is about all I can think of that would cause tang failure . Hey Bill, while you've got your camera out .... Make with some closeup piccys of the hilt trim willya ? Also I'd like to hear your comments seeing as how you're the instigator of this thread . Rick

3rd July 2008, 02:08 AM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I like the unusual pamor, the exceptional condition of the katik (upper and lower) and the repair. (The other side is much smoother.)

3rd July 2008, 04:22 AM	#9
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	Was this sword sold to you as an old kris? If it was, actually it is not. Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished. This kris is recent due to the incorporations of different designs from different muslim communities. I am pretty sure that this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

3rd July 2008, 04:30 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I again disagree - the bands appear to have patina, and varnishing is not that uncommon on wood - not a recent creation. Also I have seen and handled the things coming out of Lanao in recent years - this does not match those at all and the blade construction is laminated whereas those from Lanao are monosteel.

3rd July 2008, 04:55 AM	#11
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	Bill already said it's a Maranao sword. Maranaos are form Lanao. Show me a photo of a kris collected years ago with a cherry-varnished handle head. I would love to see it since I believe there were cherry-colored tree/woods before, not red lawaan, that are extinct now and I also believed that resin and some gluey sap were used as varnish because some lumad kids still polish their nails using them.

3rd July 2008, 05:26 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I did have one years ago from a US vet that fought at the battle of Bud Bagsak in 1915 with the same red color pommel - I will have to look to see if I have a photo.... The narra tree is red on the deeper inside and often it's burl was used to make pommels......

3rd July 2008, 05:31 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Well Bill, i don't need to tell you that this is obviously an older kris and that it is certainly not "the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector". I think that any serious collector can see that as well. Judging the age of the kris based on the rattan bands is just ridiculous. It is the blade that one must judge the kris by, not the dress, which has obviously had some repairs and adjustments over the years. I doubt, for instance, that the rattan bands were original to this kris. The pommel my have very well been changed as well. Who knows. We can see that the back asang-asang is newer than the front one. This is the nature of a sword that has seen real use. It has different repairs and different adaptaions from different periods of it's life. It is interesting that the person who linked us to a website of a man standing in front of a wall full of decorative tourist punals which she claimed to be real kris thinks that this kris is a tourist piece.

3rd July 2008, 07:13 AM	#14
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment. I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it. Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not. In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum. Fake or not, I don't really care.

3rd July 2008, 07:22 AM	#15
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	old patina is darker and oftentimes greenish. I can even see some welding traces.

3rd July 2008, 08:01 AM	#17
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	can you not see the welding dots just above the katik on the second pic? Now, compare that to the second kris, which I think is old and older. Now tell me why it's old. Educate me.

3rd July 2008, 08:58 AM	#18
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older. Sharpening a snaky kris with no distinct design or pamor on both sides also makes the area near the center of the blade smooth. the blade just looks new to me. don't tell me you want me to elaborate more on the handle which is the most problematic one.

3rd July 2008, 10:57 AM	#20
baganing_balyan Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 89	I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

3rd July 2008, 02:35 PM	#22
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ron, Meant to say earlier that I am also glad to see you back! You have a lot to contribute.

3rd July 2008, 08:42 PM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Something occurred to me while pondering these keyed tang replacements . Let me propose a scenario (always fun ): Captured weapons in the field; some may have been confiscated but some may also have been destroyed on the spot . How do you make the kris unusable ? Break the tang . A small unit in the field could not afford to be weighed down with every confiscated weapon on a patrol or after a skirmish . Just musing ..........

10th July 2008, 04:53 PM	#27
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition . Is this a different one ? Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ? I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .