Comments on the blade of this Moro Kris?

VVV · 3rd June 2005, 11:18 AM

I just got this Kris with a center that resembles pamor.
All comments appreciated.

Michael

Federico · 3rd June 2005, 02:23 PM

Very nice and very interesting kris. 19th century Sulu perhaps? It almost looks like the gangya is a mismatch, but I cant tell from pics especially with very little sleep. The center etch is indeed very interesting, it looks like it was purposely etched deeply, and then had the edges polished clean. Ive seen similar effect done on other Moro Kris, but not so purposefully. Generally, on the other pieces I have seen the center remained etched because of the fullering, which is naturally difficult to polish out smooth, a side-effect of placement so to speak, and not necessarily purposefully. This one definitely has that purposeful look, even though the general conditions are similar. It looks very fresh, and I wonder if it was done in recent years. Oh well, just rambling nonsensical guessing, very nice kris. Very unique look, though there is a side of me that is interested in seeing what the rest of the blade would look etched, stunning pattern.

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 02:32 PM

Would love to see a close up of the pamor area .

VVV · 3rd June 2005, 03:11 PM

Rick,

Here is a close up.

Thanks,

Michael

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 03:33 PM

Really topographical , nice !

Is there any possible way this could be a wax resist etch ?
I doubt it is .

Quite a complex pattern .
Beautiful Michael .

Lew · 3rd June 2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Really topographical , nice !

Is there any possible way this could be a wax resist etch ?
I doubt it is .

Quite a complex pattern .
Beautiful Michael .

VVV

Very nice kris it strikes me as an early to mid 20th century sword 1920-40? It seems to be of excellent quality! I must agree with Rick that the pamor is wax acid etched and not mechanically forged. The baca baca are very well done but I have noticed on original older kris prior to 1910-20 that the baca are of one piece construction rather than two separate pieces as in the one pictured above but this is my personal opinion of course.

Lew

Bill · 3rd June 2005, 06:18 PM

Michael, Could you give us more close ups of the sheath & the hilt? The blade certainly is 19thC & the over all appearance is so pristine, one has to wonder what was original & if anything has been altered; sometimes the problem with doing too nice of a job cleaning, you remove the "age". Michael, what is your impression of the sword & sheath, what appears to you as being receint work? When you look into the wranka (where the sword inserts) does the carving look receint? When you look at the top right corner of the close up you can see the structure of the metal continue past the cut of the fuller line. But the cut line is done so sharply, it looks as to have been done with modern tools. Could some sort of acidic paste been put on the center of this blade, that eat down into the pattern? This sword obviously has been taken apart & cleaned, I suspect the fuller work was done then, etched, edges polished & the hilt re-wraped. The sheath also is in such good condition, is it recient or just so nicely cleaned; no age cracks or signs of wear. The horn tip is unusaul, more like Sumatra work, but then again there is no end to the uniqueness of Moro pieces. If things have been altered on this sword, the person who did them, knew what they were doing.

Lew · 3rd June 2005, 06:33 PM

The horn tip is unusaul, more like Sumatra work, but then again there is no end to the uniqueness of Moro pieces. If things have been altered on this sword, the person who did them, knew what they were doing.[/QUOTE]

I must agree with bill the scabbard looks to be Indonesian in style to me. Could you post a close up of the hilt? This could be an older kris that was reworked at a later date.

Lew

Spunjer · 3rd June 2005, 06:34 PM

beautiful kris!!!
the pamor looks very deliberate; as in what the indonesians does to keris. maybe our keris collector brethrens can shed some light to this...

Federico · 3rd June 2005, 08:41 PM

I have the feeling this is true pamor, and not a wax resist. If you look at the blade tip, there are spots that look like there maybe lamination. My sneaking suspicion is that the center panel may have been restored in Indonesian fashion using arsenic, hence the odd coloration and deepness of the etching. Strong tophographical etch with citric acid, followed by arsenic. However, even without the arsenic, I have seen similar effect/pattern in other kris/budiak/etc...

VVV · 3rd June 2005, 09:51 PM

Thanks all for your comments on this Kris.
I have enclosed 2 additional pictures on the hilt and the wrangka.
It's not as perfect as it looks and I believe the sheath is original or at least quite old.
The hilt has been broken and reglued. And there is minor damages on the sheath from wear. It reminds me of the feeling of well restored antique European furnitures.
I suspect that it has been brought to Europe a long time ago and been kept for display. And somebody restored it very professionally before I got it. Maybe somebody who usually restores European antiques?
The center resembles Balinese pamor, except the topography.

Michael

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 10:00 PM

Michael , could I ask you for a close up shot of the area where the patterning ends near the point ?

Also has anyone else noticed the pronounced taper of the blade , or is that just a trick of the camera ?

I have a Budiak with a topographic center panel but we have all seen that a zillion times already so I won't waste server space by posting it again .

You posted the scabbard and hilt pics while I was writing and I must say that looks like genuine old patina .

VVV · 3rd June 2005, 10:18 PM

Sure Rick,

Unfortunately it's late here now.
This was the best I could do with the light.
Maybe I should try again tomorrow with daylight instead?

Thanks,

Michael

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 11:14 PM

Michael , you're great !
Pictures on demand !

This is no wax resist ; I think that if it were etched (please don't) it would show an added on edge of regular laminate much as my budiak has or this sword :

Lew · 3rd June 2005, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Michael , you're great !
Pictures on demand !

This is no wax resist ; I think that if it were etched (please don't) it would show an added on edge of regular laminate much as my budiak has or this sword :

I stand corrected!

Lew

Bill · 3rd June 2005, 11:21 PM

Thanks for the additional pics. The scabbard does look old & a Sulu look to it. Is the extended piece of the hilt new?, it looks like there is a hole in it for a wooden dowel or screw. The pattern looks genuine, but how was it etched so deeply. seems that something was left on it for days or even weeks to go so deep.

VVV · 3rd June 2005, 11:30 PM

Bill,

The grain on the reglued part of the hilt matches the other.
It looks like it just broke off.
The hole is more like a small dent. Similar to where small stones could be attached.

Thanks,

Michael

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I stand corrected!

Lew

Hi Lew , when I first wondered about a resist I was wondering if the pattern itself was drawn in wax . Now I'm thinking that the smooth edges were the resist covered area and the acid was allowed to work on the center panel to bring out the patterning .

BluErf · 4th June 2005, 12:49 AM

Our fellow forumnite, Mr Paul De Souza, has a Sulu Moro kris with identical sheath. This is the 3rd example I've seen (2nd one was on ebay). Very nicely executed piece.

The blade looks very different though. Sorry I do not have a picture with me. Paul's piece is a luk 5 piece, also with a centre etch. However, blade is very slim and lanky. This blade here feels broad and substantial. Maybe a difference between newer-style and older-style blade?

Rick · 4th June 2005, 01:03 AM

Most likely Blu , the older blades were much narrower as a general rule .

( No , I'm not going to post another pic of my 'archaic' kris ; Nechesh would explode

)

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 04:17 AM

The shandigan kris again

Perhaps a butt weld goes with shanidgization...............?..........
Any old kris sundang I've ever handled and examined in person seemed like san mai type lamination. Just saying......
That one closeup looks distinctly like faked pattern, but if so it lacks the usual mistakes that prove so, and it does seem to "run off" the edges of the center panel a bit, as real pattern might do.....I would mention that lam lines in the other part of the blade don't mean much as to faked/real pattern; most old blades with faked pattern are folded/laminated, just not interestingly/complexly.
Real interesting parrallelism to the premedieval and medieval German "Viking" swords (and spears; there was a panelled spear, although it was AFAIK made san-mai style, with overlayed, not thrulayed etched patterned panels.).

Federico · 4th June 2005, 07:15 AM

I have the feeling there was not a wax resist done. If you look at the transition border between the polish and etched area, as well as the lamination hints in the tip, there is a raggedness that is very consistent with after the fact polish vs a more precise wax resist. Also, the polish of the rest of the blade has a very odd grit look, not really typical to these pieces. Looks like an aggressive modern stone vs older pieces. I dunno, hard to explain, Ive just polished enough of these swords to recognise the look.

nechesh · 4th June 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Most likely Blu , the older blades were much narrower as a general rule .

( No , I'm not going to post another pic of my 'archaic' kris ; Nechesh would explode

)

Yes Rick, there is only so much the kris lust centers (KLC

) of my brain can stand!

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 05:35 PM

I'd like to add concerning the idea that the pattern could be faked, that the way it seems to go linear and lose its complex pattern toward the end of the etched area seems to argue for it being real.

VVV · 5th June 2005, 09:37 AM

Thank you all for your help and comments on my Kris.

Michael

PS Rick, I at least would like to see your Budiak spearpoint.
Please mail me a picture when you have time.
I also own one of those archaic keris

Bill · 5th June 2005, 02:38 PM

Michael, Could you post pics of the old kris?

VVV · 5th June 2005, 04:14 PM

Bill,

I am not sure at all if my keris really is old or treated somehow to make it look old. But it doesn't look like a regular keris buda.
I will take some pics of it and let you judge.

Bill · 5th June 2005, 06:16 PM

Thanks for posting all the pics. I'm sure your post of the keris will get responce. I wonder if the same manner was used on both the kris & keris, only less on the kris. I guess this is a dangerous subject, too much info may cause some old pieces to get this type of etch. Does anyone have an idea how long this type of etch has been done? I guess an old heirloom piece may have been ecthed some time after its originations, only to enhance it, where if done today, it would be done to enhance value, & in my opinion destroying the piece. Rick, can you post close-ups of the etching on your pieces, do you think they were done by the same process as in Michaels kris? Antiques post a pic from Houlstein, in this old tread http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001982.html , of an unusual piece, if I re-call, it had a deep etch, & Bugis like hilt.

Rick · 5th June 2005, 06:48 PM

Bill , none of my Moro pieces were done in the style of Michael's . They , for the most part , show only a surface pattern . The only example of a Moro sword that has some slight topography that I have is the one posted further back in this thread ; there is a picture of the tip showing the edge applied around the twisted core .

----------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the keris on the other thread ; it looks like it was buried , or was made to look so . That is not a finish that comes from centuries of ritual etching IMO .

tom hyle · 6th June 2005, 11:28 AM

Too much information (?!) would only likely encourage old Moro swords to get the kind of finish they would've originally had before years of existence; it is too little information that might promote an incorrect/nontraditional treatment; a little knowlege is a dangerous thing.

3rd June 2005, 11:18 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Comments on the blade of this Moro Kris? I just got this Kris with a center that resembles pamor. All comments appreciated. Michael Attached Images

3rd June 2005, 03:11 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Rick, Here is a close up. Thanks, Michael Attached Images

3rd June 2005, 03:33 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	WOW Really topographical , nice ! Is there any possible way this could be a wax resist etch ? I doubt it is . Quite a complex pattern . Beautiful Michael .

3rd June 2005, 09:51 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks all for your comments on this Kris. I have enclosed 2 additional pictures on the hilt and the wrangka. It's not as perfect as it looks and I believe the sheath is original or at least quite old. The hilt has been broken and reglued. And there is minor damages on the sheath from wear. It reminds me of the feeling of well restored antique European furnitures. I suspect that it has been brought to Europe a long time ago and been kept for display. And somebody restored it very professionally before I got it. Maybe somebody who usually restores European antiques? The center resembles Balinese pamor, except the topography. Michael Attached Images

3rd June 2005, 10:18 PM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Sure Rick, Unfortunately it's late here now. This was the best I could do with the light. Maybe I should try again tomorrow with daylight instead? Thanks, Michael Attached Images

3rd June 2005, 02:23 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Very nice and very interesting kris. 19th century Sulu perhaps? It almost looks like the gangya is a mismatch, but I cant tell from pics especially with very little sleep. The center etch is indeed very interesting, it looks like it was purposely etched deeply, and then had the edges polished clean. Ive seen similar effect done on other Moro Kris, but not so purposefully. Generally, on the other pieces I have seen the center remained etched because of the fullering, which is naturally difficult to polish out smooth, a side-effect of placement so to speak, and not necessarily purposefully. This one definitely has that purposeful look, even though the general conditions are similar. It looks very fresh, and I wonder if it was done in recent years. Oh well, just rambling nonsensical guessing, very nice kris. Very unique look, though there is a side of me that is interested in seeing what the rest of the blade would look etched, stunning pattern.

3rd June 2005, 02:32 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Would love to see a close up of the pamor area .

3rd June 2005, 06:18 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Michael, Could you give us more close ups of the sheath & the hilt? The blade certainly is 19thC & the over all appearance is so pristine, one has to wonder what was original & if anything has been altered; sometimes the problem with doing too nice of a job cleaning, you remove the "age". Michael, what is your impression of the sword & sheath, what appears to you as being receint work? When you look into the wranka (where the sword inserts) does the carving look receint? When you look at the top right corner of the close up you can see the structure of the metal continue past the cut of the fuller line. But the cut line is done so sharply, it looks as to have been done with modern tools. Could some sort of acidic paste been put on the center of this blade, that eat down into the pattern? This sword obviously has been taken apart & cleaned, I suspect the fuller work was done then, etched, edges polished & the hilt re-wraped. The sheath also is in such good condition, is it recient or just so nicely cleaned; no age cracks or signs of wear. The horn tip is unusaul, more like Sumatra work, but then again there is no end to the uniqueness of Moro pieces. If things have been altered on this sword, the person who did them, knew what they were doing.

3rd June 2005, 06:33 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The horn tip is unusaul, more like Sumatra work, but then again there is no end to the uniqueness of Moro pieces. If things have been altered on this sword, the person who did them, knew what they were doing.[/QUOTE] I must agree with bill the scabbard looks to be Indonesian in style to me. Could you post a close up of the hilt? This could be an older kris that was reworked at a later date. Lew

3rd June 2005, 06:34 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	beautiful kris!!! the pamor looks very deliberate; as in what the indonesians does to keris. maybe our keris collector brethrens can shed some light to this...

3rd June 2005, 08:41 PM	#10
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I have the feeling this is true pamor, and not a wax resist. If you look at the blade tip, there are spots that look like there maybe lamination. My sneaking suspicion is that the center panel may have been restored in Indonesian fashion using arsenic, hence the odd coloration and deepness of the etching. Strong tophographical etch with citric acid, followed by arsenic. However, even without the arsenic, I have seen similar effect/pattern in other kris/budiak/etc...

3rd June 2005, 10:00 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Michael , could I ask you for a close up shot of the area where the patterning ends near the point ? Also has anyone else noticed the pronounced taper of the blade , or is that just a trick of the camera ? I have a Budiak with a topographic center panel but we have all seen that a zillion times already so I won't waste server space by posting it again . You posted the scabbard and hilt pics while I was writing and I must say that looks like genuine old patina .

3rd June 2005, 11:14 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Michael , you're great ! Pictures on demand ! This is no wax resist ; I think that if it were etched (please don't) it would show an added on edge of regular laminate much as my budiak has or this sword : Attached Images

3rd June 2005, 11:21 PM	#16
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Thanks for the additional pics. The scabbard does look old & a Sulu look to it. Is the extended piece of the hilt new?, it looks like there is a hole in it for a wooden dowel or screw. The pattern looks genuine, but how was it etched so deeply. seems that something was left on it for days or even weeks to go so deep.

3rd June 2005, 11:30 PM	#17
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Bill, The grain on the reglued part of the hilt matches the other. It looks like it just broke off. The hole is more like a small dent. Similar to where small stones could be attached. Thanks, Michael

4th June 2005, 12:49 AM	#19
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Our fellow forumnite, Mr Paul De Souza, has a Sulu Moro kris with identical sheath. This is the 3rd example I've seen (2nd one was on ebay). Very nicely executed piece. The blade looks very different though. Sorry I do not have a picture with me. Paul's piece is a luk 5 piece, also with a centre etch. However, blade is very slim and lanky. This blade here feels broad and substantial. Maybe a difference between newer-style and older-style blade?

4th June 2005, 01:03 AM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Most likely Blu , the older blades were much narrower as a general rule . ( No , I'm not going to post another pic of my 'archaic' kris ; Nechesh would explode )

4th June 2005, 04:17 AM	#21
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The shandigan kris again Perhaps a butt weld goes with shanidgization...............?.......... Any old kris sundang I've ever handled and examined in person seemed like san mai type lamination. Just saying...... That one closeup looks distinctly like faked pattern, but if so it lacks the usual mistakes that prove so, and it does seem to "run off" the edges of the center panel a bit, as real pattern might do.....I would mention that lam lines in the other part of the blade don't mean much as to faked/real pattern; most old blades with faked pattern are folded/laminated, just not interestingly/complexly. Real interesting parrallelism to the premedieval and medieval German "Viking" swords (and spears; there was a panelled spear, although it was AFAIK made san-mai style, with overlayed, not thrulayed etched patterned panels.).

4th June 2005, 07:15 AM	#22
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I have the feeling there was not a wax resist done. If you look at the transition border between the polish and etched area, as well as the lamination hints in the tip, there is a raggedness that is very consistent with after the fact polish vs a more precise wax resist. Also, the polish of the rest of the blade has a very odd grit look, not really typical to these pieces. Looks like an aggressive modern stone vs older pieces. I dunno, hard to explain, Ive just polished enough of these swords to recognise the look.

4th June 2005, 05:35 PM	#24
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'd like to add concerning the idea that the pattern could be faked, that the way it seems to go linear and lose its complex pattern toward the end of the etched area seems to argue for it being real.

5th June 2005, 09:37 AM	#25
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thank you all for your help and comments on my Kris. Michael PS Rick, I at least would like to see your Budiak spearpoint. Please mail me a picture when you have time. I also own one of those archaic keris

5th June 2005, 02:38 PM	#26
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Michael, Could you post pics of the old kris?

5th June 2005, 04:14 PM	#27
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Bill, I am not sure at all if my keris really is old or treated somehow to make it look old. But it doesn't look like a regular keris buda. I will take some pics of it and let you judge.

5th June 2005, 06:16 PM	#28
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Thanks for posting all the pics. I'm sure your post of the keris will get responce. I wonder if the same manner was used on both the kris & keris, only less on the kris. I guess this is a dangerous subject, too much info may cause some old pieces to get this type of etch. Does anyone have an idea how long this type of etch has been done? I guess an old heirloom piece may have been ecthed some time after its originations, only to enhance it, where if done today, it would be done to enhance value, & in my opinion destroying the piece. Rick, can you post close-ups of the etching on your pieces, do you think they were done by the same process as in Michaels kris? Antiques post a pic from Houlstein, in this old tread http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001982.html , of an unusual piece, if I re-call, it had a deep etch, & Bugis like hilt.

5th June 2005, 06:48 PM	#29
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Bill , none of my Moro pieces were done in the style of Michael's . They , for the most part , show only a surface pattern . The only example of a Moro sword that has some slight topography that I have is the one posted further back in this thread ; there is a picture of the tip showing the edge applied around the twisted core . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the keris on the other thread ; it looks like it was buried , or was made to look so . That is not a finish that comes from centuries of ritual etching IMO .

6th June 2005, 11:28 AM	#30
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Too much information (?!) would only likely encourage old Moro swords to get the kind of finish they would've originally had before years of existence; it is too little information that might promote an incorrect/nontraditional treatment; a little knowlege is a dangerous thing.