A well decorated cup hilt for comment

[Cerjak]

A well decorated cup hilt for comment

O.L. 116 cm ; blade L. 97 cm; blade width at hilt 2 cm
Blade stamped Solingen in the 2 sides
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

[cornelistromp]

I'm less familiar with cup hilts, the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking members can provide useful Information here.

are the pommel and grip later additions?

best,
jasper

[Jim McDougall]

This is a cup hilt comprised of four shells which seems usually of first half 17thc and both Italian and Spanish convention. The Italian are often with pierced openwork and from Brescia, while the solid and usually chiseled style like this are of course usually Spanish.
Ref:
(AVB Norman, "The Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820", hilt #83).
also,
"Rapiers" Eric Valentine, No's 35, 36.

On these the pommels are typically oblate, and this may be replacement as suggested by Jasper. Also the wire is likely replacement and it seems Turks Heads are absent as usually seen in these instances.

[mariusgmioc]

Very similar to mine:

Blade inscribed on one side
TOLEDO XX HEINRICH XX BRACH;

and on the other side
TOLEDO XX HEINRICH XX BRACHO

It appears that your blade also has some inscription. What does it say?

[Carlo Paggiarino]

Nice rapier

[Philip]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]This is a cup hilt comprised of four shells which seems usually of first half 17thc and both Italian and Spanish convention. The Italian are often with pierced openwork and from Brescia, while the solid and usually chiseled style like this are of course usually Spanish.

The four-shell construction is rather unusual for the type. I beg to differ on the pierced openwork hilts of Italy, however. Though some examples of this type of craftsmanship do hail from Brescia (Giovan Maria Tonini was a noted cutler from there who made hilts of this style), the cities of Milan and Naples were far ahead in both quality and quantity of output. The ranks of Italian masters of pierced hilts are headed by Lorenzo Palumbo of Naples and Francesco Maria Rivolta of Milan, both flourishing in the third quarter of the 17th cent. See Boccia and Coehlo, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE, for near-mint examples of their work in major museum collections in Europe and the US, it is simply breathtaking. Also check out the new digital catalog of the Wallace Collection. The openwork style was imitated elsewhere; according to Oakeshott, inferior imitations were made in Germany in an attempt to cash in on the south European market for these unique weapons.

Interesting that although the Italians are responsible for some of the best quality in this class, they regarded cup hilts as a foreign innovation, calling these rapiers " spade alla spagnola" . They date from a time during which the southern half of Italy was under Spanish rule.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is a cup hilt comprised of four shells which seems usually of first half 17thc and both Italian and Spanish convention. The Italian are often with pierced openwork and from Brescia, while the solid and usually chiseled style like this are of course usually Spanish.

The four-shell construction is rather unusual for the type. I beg to differ on the pierced openwork hilts of Italy, however. Though some examples of this type of craftsmanship do hail from Brescia (Giovan Maria Tonini was a noted cutler from there who made hilts of this style), the cities of Milan and Naples were far ahead in both quality and quantity of output. The ranks of Italian masters of pierced hilts are headed by Lorenzo Palumbo of Naples and Francesco Maria Rivolta of Milan, both flourishing in the third quarter of the 17th cent. See Boccia and Coehlo, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE, for near-mint examples of their work in major museum collections in Europe and the US, it is simply breathtaking. Also check out the new digital catalog of the Wallace Collection. The openwork style was imitated elsewhere; according to Oakeshott, inferior imitations were made in Germany in an attempt to cash in on the south European market for these unique weapons.

Interesting that although the Italians are responsible for some of the best quality in this class, they regarded cup hilts as a foreign innovation, calling these rapiers " spade alla spagnola" . They date from a time during which the southern half of Italy was under Spanish rule.

Thank you Philip, and I should have not specified Brescia singularly, as I do recognize that not ALL pierced (and very much agreed, beautiful openwork) hilts were from there alone. As you have also well noted, the Italians indeed considered the simple cup hilt a Spanish innovation but naturally, artists that they are, suitably embellished the form.

[fernando]

When looking for something different i came across a work LA ESPADA ROPERA ESPAÑOLA EN LOS SIGLOS XVI Y XVII by JOSE MARIA PELAEZ VALLE in that, Spanish masters also put up their share of pierced guards. Another interesting thing is that, contrary to (what i) realized, they also made deep cup bowls; actually so deep that they even call them TAZAS DE HUEVO ( EGG CUPS).

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...ewFile/127/127


.

[Jim McDougall]

This pretty well illustrates the danger in asserting certain features and character of weapon forms to specific regions, especially in the geopolitical circumstances involved between Spain and Italy in these times.
Nicely illustrated!

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I'm less familiar with cup hilts, the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking members can provide useful Information here.

are the pommel and grip later additions?

best,
jasper

An exemplar with also a pommel in the shape of a" cork of a champagne bottle"

[fernando]

... ? .


.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

... ? .


.

Ok Fernando ,not really same shape when I see this picture.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Spanish Cup Hilt Rapier.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Philadelphia Museum of Art: Handbook of the Collections
By the early sixteenth century a European nobleman customarily wore a sword while in civilian dress. To defend his unarmored hands, more protective sword hilts were developed, which, when fitted with a narrow blade intended for thrusting more than cutting, became known as a rapier. This lethal weapon was also the most prominent accessory to a nobleman's costume and therefore was fashionably decorated. By the seventeenth century the use of rapiers was being taught in several styles, or schools, of fencing. The Spanish school favoried a characteristic type of cup-hilted rapier used with a left-handed dagger. It was practiced not only in Spain but also in areas under Spanish rule, such as the Kingdom of Naples and the Duchy of Milan. This ornate example is signed by the Milanese swordmaker Francesco Maria Rivolta. Its sturdy steel cup is chiseled with a swirling floral design that shows the strong influence of contemporary metalwork from Brescia. Cup-hilted rapiers remained popular in Spanish territories until the late eighteenth century, long after the us of rapiers had gone out of fashion elsewhere. Donald J. LaRocca, from Philadelphia Museum of Art: Handbook of the Collections (1995), p. 137.

see the weapon at https://www.philamuseum.org/collecti...ent/71707.html

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This sword is probably a favourite when I consider best European swords... It seems to call for a well trained swordsman and has an air of seniority about it. Seen below with similar hilts for comparison.

Described as~

A) Italian rapier, c.1610. Of true swept-hilt form, it has deep chiseling to the knuckle guard.

B) A North European dueling rapier, c.1635, with a distinctive elongated and fluted pommel.

C) A Spanish cup-hilt rapier, c.1660. The cup and hilt are extensively pierced. It has very long, straight, slender quillons with finials to each end.

D) An English rapier with a finely chiseled cup hilt, c.1650. The blade is stamped “Sahagum”.

[Foxbat]

As others already indicated, the pommel does look suspicious, a far more traditional form would be as in the picture below, but without actually examining the item I would not declare it a replacement.

The grip wire is undoubtedly rather poor replacement. Most good examples of that style have finer grips. Here is the picture of the similar rapier, where I redid the grip wire - it improved the appearance quite a bit.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

As others already indicated, the pommel does look suspicious, a far more traditional form would be as in the picture below, but without actually examining the item I would not declare it a replacement.

The grip wire is undoubtedly rather poor replacement. Most good examples of that style have finer grips. Here is the picture of the similar rapier, where I redid the grip wire - it improved the appearance quite a bit.

Can the pommels typically be unscrewed from the tang?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

As others already indicated, the pommel does look suspicious ...

May i ask, which of the above pommels you say that looks suspicious, Foxbat ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Can the pommels typically be unscrewed from the tang?

Many like the one in the first post are; mine are. Probably Foxbat's example also.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by fernando

May i ask, which of the above pommels you say that looks suspicious, Foxbat ?

I meant the first one.

I believe mine is peened, does not unscrew, but I will double check later today.

PS. Yes, peened.