Jineta/nimcha/kattara

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have been through this one in the forum; a good realistic evidence on the period swords. Actually i have a set of bronze medals representing this six panel set. But ... sorry my curiosty ... why do you keep calling them black swords ? That was an episode occurred on a particular shipment context; not the typologic name of these swords;

Which is?

Now, since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century. Left panel, upper image. It is in the opposite side of the Iberic Peninsula, the Kingdom of Aragón:


Santo Domingo de Silos

Regards

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Which is? ... since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century..

I wouldn't know if they ought to have a type 'name', other than a tipology type, but certainly not, as i know of, such allegorical 'black sword' one in that context; surely not 'frivolous divagation' swords, in any case .
What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian.
On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword .
I remember having been here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels

BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path .


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know if they ought to have a type 'name', other than a tipology type, but certainly not, as i know of, such allegorical 'black sword' one in that context; surely not 'frivolous divagation' swords, in any case .
What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian.
On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword .
I remember having been here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels

BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path .
.

On seeing your library reference~ Without doubt some of the best artwork presented on this Forum and looking at the original thread I don't understand why it didn't go on to be a blockbuster in this regard. These early artworks are a beacon of light. I noted how the late Matchlock, Michael(RIP) admired such illustrations.

In these Iberian ...and in fact Mediterranean forms there is clear and undisputed free association of design although it is difficult to nail down a specific date where one form flows into the next. I wondered if the Jewish expulsion question from Spain can be viewed in explaining the redistribution of sword makers around the region may be part of the equation. In 1492 when the great expulsion took place see http://www.sephardicstudies.org/1492account.html where it states that most were artisans and for example the King of Turkey welcomed those that made it...as he was aware of their expertise... at making arms. Thus it was that these peoples were spread around and must have gone where their specialty was best received ... It is suggested that weapon spread of design and style must have featured highly in their technique thus diffusion of design probably took place widely.

To me two countries (but not only two) in particular are responsible for the world wide spread of sword variants... Spain and Portugal ... The Papal act Treaty_of_Tordesillas 1494 and closely related treaties to 1530 and onwards which split the Atlantic between the two must be instrumental in farming out the potential for spreading form from each source. (But not only that factor)

In fact this didn't altogether prevent each country from doing a little trespassing... and ships going the long way round and via Acapulco soon found the short way home via the Indian Ocean.

In effect hardly any country took a blind bit of notice of this treaty and it could be argued that it simply heated up the race for territorial expansion all around. In itself this comes as another factor in sword design copy and transfer..Interesting.

The thread is a good one although I repeat that insofar-as the header...Jineta/nimcha/kattara is concerned Jinetta and Nimcha are related and relatable but the third is not; Kattara has nothing to do with either.

The Papal act dividing up the world can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

and below an idea of the sea chart supporting it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

And if that were not enough please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

... BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path . .

It is true that this thread was launched in 2008; it continued with its original topic being discussed untill 2011; and then it went frozen untill now. Perhaps it is no crime to give it a new stretch, even admiting that the intrinsic sense of the original topic may expand to a determined liberty ... which we may baptize as "side topic" material.

I will start by uploading pictures of the falcatas from that catalogue i have previously mentioned (and as already requested by Gonzalo) and later will add to this post some considerations introduced in such catalogue, about the Weapons of the Iberian Iron Age, written by authors other than those quoted by Gonzalo, but which approach, even admitedly outdated, seems to be worth to consider.
In a next post, i will upload further pictures of the same catalogue, in order to help me raise some empirical crazy questions about the turned quillon saga.


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[fernando]

As i see it written out there, the falcata Iberica may not go without its counterpart, the La Tene type sword, an inheritance of the Halstadt period, with its 'antena' grip evolution. It appears that either style found its location in different parts of the Peninsula, apparently due to their distinct migration directions.
When discussing which of these two types was used by the famous Viriato, a Lusitanian tribal warrior that dared to confrontate and managed to significantly delay the Roman invasion, conclusion would be that he used mainly the La Tene (a model with a straight blade in opposition to sickle shaped falcata), a style that pleased the Romans, to the extent that they adopted it for his weaponry equipment, calling it Gladius Hispaniensis (they called Hispania to the whole Peninsula).
We know that all this is of common knowledge, even boring for a connoisseur like Gonzalo; however my reach atempt is another, one that goes beyond common sense, that still i dare put things in a different angle; not academic or scholar, only empirical, certainly closer to insanity. When i collected coins i acquired a couple ancient Indian coins, dating back to many centuries before Christ. This took me to browse on the origin of money currency; well i found two locations running in the same championship, the author saying that maybe one didn't copy or picked the idea from the other. They happened to simultaneousy felt such necessity, and so they went ahead minting coins, one not knowing about the other. I don't recall the exact details, but the moral of the story is what matters here. Sword guards, quillons, curved quillons, extremely curved quillons; what precisely were they for ... blade catchers, finger defences, adornments, religious symbols, scabbard adjustment implements ? And why have they been necessarily copied from the neighborhood or remote domains ? I know this is a subject that gives reason of existance to scholars, but for those who fancy simpler explanations, perspectives arise that switch another kind of complicometer, that of an ignarus. Look at these Iberian antena swords from the Hallstatl period, VI to V century BC. Aren't those quillons on their guards ... even down turned, although of reduced dimensions ? And, for a couple seconds, compare them with those of the Omani Kattara. I know i must be out of my mind, but ... how in hell those Iberians (whoever) cared to apply such things in their sword guards ?


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[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Sword guards, quillons, curved quillons, extremely curved quillons; what precisely were they for ... blade catchers, finger defences, adornments, religious symbols, scabbard adjustment implements ? And why have they been necessarily copied from the neighborhood or remote domains?

I completely agree with this reasoning. This is why I always quesion in my mind the statements about such and such influences over a specific development and try to search if the features supposedly due to foreign influences does not in fact come from indigenous traditions. Unfortunately, there are many gaps in the archaeological record and we can not trace the cultural evolution of many features. This is specially severe in the case of prehistorical-prewriting cultures, in the case where certain cultures were systematically destoyed or in the case of those countries where the lack of resources does not allow extensive archaeological research and/or the climate does not favors the preservation of remains.

And please don't credit me. I am not a connoisseur. I am just trying to learn and confront my ideas with those of others, to test them. On the falcatas or on the subject of influences, maybe it should be better if you open a new thread.

Regards

[Gonzalo G]

Though it is known today the incredibly far reaching connections since prehistoric times the peoples from around the world, except perhaps Australia and America, always had. The influences existed, and also had a far reaching effect. The crossing paths were the most benefited from this interchange, specially the Mediterranean Culture.

[fernando]

Well, didn't they find out the other day that we are all related ? Apparently this thing of us being different is a 'modernism'.
In a way that we are dispensed from having to trade the registered mark of whatever implements to other spots, for as remote as they are. There is always a local cousin in infinitesimal degree that, having related genes, comes up with a similar idea .
Going introspective, someone said i look Phoenician ... while it is assumed that a great percentage of Portuguese inherited a significant dosis of Jewish blood ... not to count with recent DNA conclusions that we also carry Berber genes .
(O Patrimonio Genético Português, by Luisa Pereira & Filipa M.Ribeiro, 2009)

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[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

As i see it written out there, the falcata Iberica may not go without its counterpart, the La Tene type sword, an inheritance of the Halstadt period, with its 'antena' grip evolution. It appears that either style found its location in different parts of the Peninsula, apparently due to their distinct migration directions.
When discussing which of these two types was used by the famous Viriato, a Lusitanian tribal warrior that dared to confrontate and managed to significantly delay the Roman invasion, conclusion would be that he used mainly the La Tene (a model with a straight blade in opposition to sickle shaped falcata), a style that pleased the Romans, to the extent that they adopted it for his weaponry equipment, calling it Gladius Hispaniensis (they called Hispania to the whole Peninsula).
We know that all this is of common knowledge, even boring for a connoisseur like Gonzalo; however my reach atempt is another, one that goes beyond common sense, that still i dare put things in a different angle; not academic or scholar, only empirical, certainly closer to insanity. When i collected coins i acquired a couple ancient Indian coins, dating back to many centuries before Christ. This took me to browse on the origin of money currency; well i found two locations running in the same championship, the author saying that maybe one didn't copy or picked the idea from the other. They happened to simultaneousy felt such necessity, and so they went ahead minting coins, one not knowing about the other. I don't recall the exact details, but the moral of the story is what matters here. Sword guards, quillons, curved quillons, extremely curved quillons; what precisely were they for ... blade catchers, finger defences, adornments, religious symbols, scabbard adjustment implements ? And why have they been necessarily copied from the neighborhood or remote domains ? I know this is a subject that gives reason of existance to scholars, but for those who fancy simpler explanations, perspectives arise that switch another kind of complicometer, that of an ignarus. Look at these Iberian antena swords from the Hallstatl period, VI to V century BC. Aren't those quillons on their guards ... even down turned, although of reduced dimensions ? And, for a couple seconds, compare them with those of the Omani Kattara. I know i must be out of my mind, but ... how in hell those Iberians (whoever) cared to apply such things in their sword guards ?
.

Salaams Fernando~ It is a very brave man who attempts to link a Sword from the 5th Century BC to the Sayf Yamaani...but brave is certainly what you are !! It reminds me of an author in Dhofar who discovered an ancient alphabet on a cave wall there... with two letters similar to a cave drawing in South West America ..Accidental parallel development in totally unconnected tribal regions. Dhofaris did not discover America!

However perhaps I am also slightly mad since I have placed a post at which explains why the Baldric and Shoulder carry gives us the reason for different Knuckle Guards on the Nimcha from Morocco and Zanzibar...

Please See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=3&pp=30 at #76

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

a cave drawing in South West America

Where? Peru? Chile?
Because America is not the United States of America, but a continent with many countries. Despite their name, the US do not agglutinate those countries, neither represent them.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Where? Peru? Chile?
Because America is not the United States of America, but a continent with many countries. Despite their name, the US do not agglutinate those countries, neither represent them.

Neither the US are situaded in the South West of Continent; i am afraid i don't get it .
Ibrahiim, could you precise the country or give us a link to that article ?

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

However perhaps I am also slightly mad since I have placed a post at which explains why the Baldric and Shoulder carry gives us the reason for different Knuckle Guards on the Nimcha from Morocco and Zanzibar...

It was hardly an explanation. A hypothesis, perhaps. And not a good one. Swords suspended by a baldric, with rounded knuckleguards and even with compicated laces and rings or with a wide cup, were used widely by infantry and cavalry. No problem with the rib cage or mounting a horse, re: the rapier.