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31st July 2017, 02:51 AM | #1 | |
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We have seen that the quillons turned toward the blade is a centuries old use among the Oriental peoples, and that the strongly downcurved quillons were used first (before the Portuguese or the Spanish peoples) by the Berbers, at least from the 13th Century, if not before. The fighting jineta sword illustrated above is from this century, and Ibrahiim also posted a picture showing that it is the older jineta already found (re: post #27, the Sangueza sword). And why the falcata is a Lusitania sword? As far I know, it is a Celtic-Iberian weapon, and the notion of “Portugal” or “Spain” did not exist in that time. Numerous findings of falcatas with horse-head hilts were also made in the actual territory of Spain. In the 16th Century those swords were buried for more than 1,300 years, and the Portuguese even didn´t know them, maybe until the 19th or 20th Century, when archaeological discoveries bring them to the modern knowledge. Berber or Moor raids into the Iberic Penisula were known at least from the roman times, but no evidence of those horse-head hilts is found in the pre-nimcha period in North Africa for more than a thousand years. But the use of animal headed hilts was common in this period in the Orient and surely the head of a horse was not an unknown feature among the cavalry-oriented Berbers. This quote seems Portuguese-biased, who is the author? I have seem similar statements in Portuguese web sites. Very nationalistic. And why the knuckleguard would be influence of the Portuguese? Contrary to the Spanish, they didn’t have presence in North Africa in this century. In the 16th Century the Portuguese invasions to Morocco were defeated repeatedly by the Saadis, which also defeated the Ottoman intents. At the end of the 16th Century, Portugal became a Spanish dominion. I lack of bibliography on Portuguese swords. I would like to see those with knuckleguards from the first half of the 16th Century, could you provide some examples? Last edited by Gonzalo G; 31st July 2017 at 01:45 PM. |
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31st July 2017, 03:05 PM | #2 | |||||||||||
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The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples. Quote:
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I just wonder how the author of such statement isn't also aware of that. But if he was, we wouldn't be here analizing such implausibilty ... although not one of the more screaming. Quote:
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time. Quote:
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... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions. Quote:
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Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period. Quote:
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If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references. ... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ? . Last edited by fernando; 31st July 2017 at 05:24 PM. |
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1st August 2017, 05:48 AM | #3 | ||||||||||
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That is correct. It is what I have been saying about this evolution. Quote:
Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin. Quote:
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I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!! Quote:
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Thank you for the references. I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images), but not the other book. As you know, I was absent from the forum and many interesting threads are unknown to me. I will search inmediately. But of what pictures are you talking about? Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page? Un abrazo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 1st August 2017 at 11:08 AM. |
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1st August 2017, 06:28 AM | #4 |
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Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:
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1st August 2017, 06:29 AM | #5 |
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Another detail:
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1st August 2017, 07:32 AM | #6 |
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But now, this more military-style men carry the more classic black swords (same panel):
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1st August 2017, 02:04 PM | #7 | |
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2nd August 2017, 02:12 AM | #8 | |
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Now, since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century. Left panel, upper image. It is in the opposite side of the Iberic Peninsula, the Kingdom of Aragón: Santo Domingo de Silos Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 2nd August 2017 at 02:25 AM. |
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2nd August 2017, 02:15 PM | #9 | |
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What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian. On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword . I remember having been here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path . . Last edited by fernando; 2nd August 2017 at 02:52 PM. |
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1st August 2017, 01:45 PM | #10 | ||||||||
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=eduardo+nobre. Quote:
.HEREHERE HEREHERE Last edited by fernando; 1st August 2017 at 01:55 PM. |
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2nd August 2017, 12:47 AM | #11 | |||||
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En Torno al Orígen y Procedencia de la Falcata Ibérica Máchaira, Kopis, Falcata Quote:
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Discoveries Swords And thank you very much for your link. A succulent text. Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 2nd August 2017 at 03:49 AM. |
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2nd August 2017, 12:37 PM | #12 | |||
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I confess that, reading this document i posted and the fraction i uploaded with a ceramic work in which Greeks are rehearsing an atack with swords visibly the type of the Kopides, my non scholar interest was satisfied. Needless to say that the Helenic origin theory is also embraced by other sources; i don't know if inspired by Quesada Sanz. In any case and quoting again the work i linked, we may read that Sanz mentions also as origin Souhern Albania and the Etruscan lands, here spotted a century later. Whether this type of weapon originated in Northern Greece and travelled to those other places, after all no so distant from eachother, is a riddle i will leave for academics endeavour. Quote:
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I was referring to another link where he shows a row of Portuguese weapons. Also in his web page he has/had an article on his visit to Rainer Dahehnartd's house (much before i did), where he photographed one or two other swords; a different context. |
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