Translation request Katar

Congoblades · 29th January 2012, 03:57 PM

Hi all, it's been a while...

A translation would be greath. If better pictures are needed let me know.
The katar is 41 cm long. Some remains of silver/gold decoration?
Is there something to say about the age?

Greets

Emanuel · 30th January 2012, 04:03 AM

Hello,

Could you turn the pictures 180 degrees? The writing is Devanagari and it is upside down. The second character from the left in your pictures is the number 4. I can't transliterate the rest yet, working on it

Regards,
Emanuel

bhushan_lawate · 30th January 2012, 04:55 AM

Hi,

It reads Ra Ki Sa 45.

Looks like an armory inventory number.

Could you turn the snap 180D that will help us get a better look.

Thanks,
Bhushan

Congoblades · 30th January 2012, 09:02 AM

Hi,

Here it is, had no idee, thanks.

Greets

Jens Nordlunde · 30th January 2012, 09:56 AM

Hi Congoblades,

The writing, or should I rather say the etching, is the armoury mark from Kishangarh.

The quality of there etchings is not made very nicely, I have only once seen it made nicely, on a tulwar I have. There it is made very precisely and deep.

That a weapon is marked in this way, does not mean that it is from Kishangarh, but on the other hand it could be. Another thing is, that there seems to be some doubt about, if all the weapons were marked, and if this is the case - why not? The time when there marking were made is also an open question. A lot of questions for hours of research

.

Make a search for ‘Kishangarh’ on the forum, and you will get three threads about this kind of marking.

archer · 30th January 2012, 04:29 PM

Here is another Kishangarh marking on a well used Kard.

Steve

Jens Nordlunde · 30th January 2012, 04:55 PM

Hi Steve,
It is interesting to see the inscription of your kard. To see these armoury markings stamped/chiselled into the blade is new to me, as the marking I have seen have been etched.
It has been done in a way, which to me is strange, as wax is applied, not nicely, just put onto the blade, what is around the letters and numbers removed, and the blade etched. It would have been easier/faster to write the letters and numbers into the wax, and then etch - to my opinion it would have looked nicer.
Does any other members have weapons marked with the Kishangarh armoury marking?

Congoblades · 30th January 2012, 05:13 PM

Thanks a lot for the info,

Greets

Emanuel · 31st January 2012, 06:09 AM

Hello,

Bhushan, I notice that on the kattar with the etched inscription the Ki has the long form "ee" after the "K" whereas the kard with the chiselled inscription has the short form "i" before the "K".

Any reason for this? Could it be due to poor literacy on the part of the scribe?

Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 31st January 2012, 01:31 PM

Hi Steve,
I have had another look at the Kishangarh chiselled mark on your kard, and I must say it looks very crisp to me - is it very crisp?
If it is, it may have been made recently to make a quick imitation of the original etched Kishangarh mark. Like I said before, I have never seen these marks made in another way than etched.
That I have not seen these marks chiselled, does not mean that some weapons could not have had chiselled markings, but when at the same time, the marking is very crisp, something tells me, that this should be investigated further.
I have not seen the whole kard, but from what I have seen of the blade, I have no doubt it is old, but is the chiselling also old?
Jens

bhushan_lawate · 1st February 2012, 04:40 AM

Hi,

Sorry couldn't reply earlier. Have sparing access to the net...!!!

The "Ki" and "Kee" which is the short and long pronunciation was used alternatively with no difference against to the difference defined in modern day grammar.

Hope that clarifies..

Regards,
Bhushan

archer · 1st February 2012, 09:12 PM

Hi Jens, I came about this knife in a lot with another knife and photo copies of two of Dr. Pants books. No mention was made acknowledging the marks. This is much like, the chicken and the egg. Jens, you may well be right, but, wouldn't Incised marks would be less likely to wear vs. the surface ?
The photos show pitting in the "3" looking symbol 2nd from the right it has some pitting in the chiseled area. Question is when did the minor pitting occur? Regards, Steve

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd February 2012, 01:34 PM

Hi Steve,

Sorry, but I doubt that it is pitting in the ’3’, but as you have the kard in your hand, and I have a picture, although a very good one, to judge from, you have the benefit, and so I don’t think I can be of any more ‘help’. Thank you for showing the whole kard.

Jens

29th January 2012, 03:57 PM	#1
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Translation request Katar Hi all, it's been a while... A translation would be greath. If better pictures are needed let me know. The katar is 41 cm long. Some remains of silver/gold decoration? Is there something to say about the age? Greets Attached Images

30th January 2012, 09:02 AM	#4
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Hi, Here it is, had no idee, thanks. Greets Attached Images

30th January 2012, 04:29 PM	#6
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Armory Mark Here is another Kishangarh marking on a well used Kard. Steve Attached Images

1st February 2012, 09:12 PM	#12
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Chiseled marks Hi Jens, I came about this knife in a lot with another knife and photo copies of two of Dr. Pants books. No mention was made acknowledging the marks. This is much like, the chicken and the egg. Jens, you may well be right, but, wouldn't Incised marks would be less likely to wear vs. the surface ? The photos show pitting in the "3" looking symbol 2nd from the right it has some pitting in the chiseled area. Question is when did the minor pitting occur? Regards, Steve Attached Images

30th January 2012, 04:03 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Could you turn the pictures 180 degrees? The writing is Devanagari and it is upside down. The second character from the left in your pictures is the number 4. I can't transliterate the rest yet, working on it Regards, Emanuel

30th January 2012, 04:55 AM	#3
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, It reads Ra Ki Sa 45. Looks like an armory inventory number. Could you turn the snap 180D that will help us get a better look. Thanks, Bhushan

30th January 2012, 09:56 AM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Congoblades, The writing, or should I rather say the etching, is the armoury mark from Kishangarh. The quality of there etchings is not made very nicely, I have only once seen it made nicely, on a tulwar I have. There it is made very precisely and deep. That a weapon is marked in this way, does not mean that it is from Kishangarh, but on the other hand it could be. Another thing is, that there seems to be some doubt about, if all the weapons were marked, and if this is the case - why not? The time when there marking were made is also an open question. A lot of questions for hours of research . Make a search for ‘Kishangarh’ on the forum, and you will get three threads about this kind of marking.

30th January 2012, 04:55 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Steve, It is interesting to see the inscription of your kard. To see these armoury markings stamped/chiselled into the blade is new to me, as the marking I have seen have been etched. It has been done in a way, which to me is strange, as wax is applied, not nicely, just put onto the blade, what is around the letters and numbers removed, and the blade etched. It would have been easier/faster to write the letters and numbers into the wax, and then etch - to my opinion it would have looked nicer. Does any other members have weapons marked with the Kishangarh armoury marking?

30th January 2012, 05:13 PM	#8
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Thanks a lot for the info, Greets

31st January 2012, 06:09 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Bhushan, I notice that on the kattar with the etched inscription the Ki has the long form "ee" after the "K" whereas the kard with the chiselled inscription has the short form "i" before the "K". Any reason for this? Could it be due to poor literacy on the part of the scribe? Emanuel

31st January 2012, 01:31 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Steve, I have had another look at the Kishangarh chiselled mark on your kard, and I must say it looks very crisp to me - is it very crisp? If it is, it may have been made recently to make a quick imitation of the original etched Kishangarh mark. Like I said before, I have never seen these marks made in another way than etched. That I have not seen these marks chiselled, does not mean that some weapons could not have had chiselled markings, but when at the same time, the marking is very crisp, something tells me, that this should be investigated further. I have not seen the whole kard, but from what I have seen of the blade, I have no doubt it is old, but is the chiselling also old? Jens

1st February 2012, 04:40 AM	#11
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, Sorry couldn't reply earlier. Have sparing access to the net...!!! The "Ki" and "Kee" which is the short and long pronunciation was used alternatively with no difference against to the difference defined in modern day grammar. Hope that clarifies.. Regards, Bhushan

2nd February 2012, 01:34 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Steve, Sorry, but I doubt that it is pitting in the ’3’, but as you have the kard in your hand, and I have a picture, although a very good one, to judge from, you have the benefit, and so I don’t think I can be of any more ‘help’. Thank you for showing the whole kard. Jens