old blades versus new

fenlander · 22nd May 2007, 05:23 PM

A lot is made of the quality of steel used in many old functional weapons as compared to stainless steel of modern production line swords and knives. I would guess that modern hardened 440 stainless steel knives made in modern production lines like Korea Taiwan China etc are probably of higher quality than many of the old hand forged weapons of the past (at the time they were produced). Surely modern technology and production methods allow for superior blades to be made now than ever was possible in the past. Non-stainless steel blades would of been very suseptable to rusting and there would be far less uniformity of production.

It seems to generally believed that on average hand forged swords and blades are superior to mass produced ones. Is this true ?

Were swords of the past really much better than the present mass produced Asian swords and knives of today ? Surely technology is so much better now, than before that this is not the case. In fact could it be true that the mass produced bladed weapons of today are better than the hand forged ones of the past.

Hopefully you will tell me I am wrong and why ?

Lew · 22nd May 2007, 06:21 PM

You can't compare the modern Taiwan swords with older blades. Modern stainless stain found in these swords have lousy heat treatment an are prone to breaking and chipping. Most old swords either Chinese or other were usually made by very skilled smiths and were of superior quality to modern mass produced swords. I am sure there were some bad swords made centuries ago but if the sword broke during combat the owner of that sword usually did not live to complain about it.

Lew

Gt Obach · 22nd May 2007, 09:00 PM

Just my opinion

i think stainless will make a lousy knife no matter whos the smith.... if you want a knife that resist rusting... then stainless works well... and thats all i give it..

a good carbon steel sword made by a talented smith... both ancient and modern will be a good weapon...

it would be fair to compare old carbon steel to new carbon steel...

with the modern melts... you can expect a better product but.... will you notice that difference in use ?? its very hard to tell...

L6 is a very tough steel... and you can tell in tests..... but its doubtful that would make the difference in a combat situation over a well made old sword.

Greg

josh stout · 22nd May 2007, 09:19 PM

Leaving stainless steel aside it is still difficult to compare old and new blades. The new ones are usually made for different purposes. Take for example the "forging flaws" that are almost diagnostic of Tibetan weapons. In modern weapons they would be considered a major defect. However, minor flaws between layers of lamination seem to stop crack formation. I have a Tibetan saber where the lamination and forging flaws have acted like rip-stop preventing several small cracks in the very hard steel at the edge and back from spreading into the body. Also antique Chinese swords can often take a bend rather easily and it is not uncommon to find one that was straightened more than once. Modern blades tend to have harder bodies that don't bend as easily. This is an advantage for cutting practice, but in battle, I suspect a modern sword might break before an antique, while an antique would bend but still be somewhat usable.

What modern technology has come close to perfecting is quality control of the steel itself, making pattern welding a matter of aesthetics rather than necessity.
Josh

Joe · 23rd May 2007, 02:38 AM

Modern carbon steels have been purified to the point that they are worlds ahead of what was used in the average historical sword.

However, as historical swords were produced in an age when they were a necessity, as opposed to modern swords made out of tradition or curiosity, blade design and craftsmanship is much better executed historically.

Mass-produced swords are infamous for their low quality. Stainless steel at any length above 12 inches becomes excessively brittle, due to the chromium content. The only way to make a decent sword blade out of stainless steel is with a proper heat treatment, but as stainless steel requires a much higher temperature for heat treatment than regular carbon steels, only a few talented smiths have been able to work with it.

Mass produced swords also succumb to "shortcuts" in their production that lower their prices, but significantly decrease quality and usability. It is not unusual to find a modern katana with a plastic tsuba (guard) shoe-string ito (handle wrap) and a rat-tail tang, which will snap upon any heavy use. But there are so many issues (poor steel, poor balance, poor cross-section, ect.) that it would be impossible to list them all here.

But as for modern sword smithing using traditional methods, things are a bit more complicated, and hopefully I'll be able to touch on it later.

22nd May 2007, 05:23 PM	#1
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	old blades versus new A lot is made of the quality of steel used in many old functional weapons as compared to stainless steel of modern production line swords and knives. I would guess that modern hardened 440 stainless steel knives made in modern production lines like Korea Taiwan China etc are probably of higher quality than many of the old hand forged weapons of the past (at the time they were produced). Surely modern technology and production methods allow for superior blades to be made now than ever was possible in the past. Non-stainless steel blades would of been very suseptable to rusting and there would be far less uniformity of production. It seems to generally believed that on average hand forged swords and blades are superior to mass produced ones. Is this true ? Were swords of the past really much better than the present mass produced Asian swords and knives of today ? Surely technology is so much better now, than before that this is not the case. In fact could it be true that the mass produced bladed weapons of today are better than the hand forged ones of the past. Hopefully you will tell me I am wrong and why ?

22nd May 2007, 06:21 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	You can't compare the modern Taiwan swords with older blades. Modern stainless stain found in these swords have lousy heat treatment an are prone to breaking and chipping. Most old swords either Chinese or other were usually made by very skilled smiths and were of superior quality to modern mass produced swords. I am sure there were some bad swords made centuries ago but if the sword broke during combat the owner of that sword usually did not live to complain about it. Lew

22nd May 2007, 09:00 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Just my opinion i think stainless will make a lousy knife no matter whos the smith.... if you want a knife that resist rusting... then stainless works well... and thats all i give it.. a good carbon steel sword made by a talented smith... both ancient and modern will be a good weapon... it would be fair to compare old carbon steel to new carbon steel... with the modern melts... you can expect a better product but.... will you notice that difference in use ?? its very hard to tell... L6 is a very tough steel... and you can tell in tests..... but its doubtful that would make the difference in a combat situation over a well made old sword. Greg

22nd May 2007, 09:19 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Leaving stainless steel aside it is still difficult to compare old and new blades. The new ones are usually made for different purposes. Take for example the "forging flaws" that are almost diagnostic of Tibetan weapons. In modern weapons they would be considered a major defect. However, minor flaws between layers of lamination seem to stop crack formation. I have a Tibetan saber where the lamination and forging flaws have acted like rip-stop preventing several small cracks in the very hard steel at the edge and back from spreading into the body. Also antique Chinese swords can often take a bend rather easily and it is not uncommon to find one that was straightened more than once. Modern blades tend to have harder bodies that don't bend as easily. This is an advantage for cutting practice, but in battle, I suspect a modern sword might break before an antique, while an antique would bend but still be somewhat usable. What modern technology has come close to perfecting is quality control of the steel itself, making pattern welding a matter of aesthetics rather than necessity. Josh

23rd May 2007, 02:38 AM	#5
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Modern carbon steels have been purified to the point that they are worlds ahead of what was used in the average historical sword. However, as historical swords were produced in an age when they were a necessity, as opposed to modern swords made out of tradition or curiosity, blade design and craftsmanship is much better executed historically. Mass-produced swords are infamous for their low quality. Stainless steel at any length above 12 inches becomes excessively brittle, due to the chromium content. The only way to make a decent sword blade out of stainless steel is with a proper heat treatment, but as stainless steel requires a much higher temperature for heat treatment than regular carbon steels, only a few talented smiths have been able to work with it. Mass produced swords also succumb to "shortcuts" in their production that lower their prices, but significantly decrease quality and usability. It is not unusual to find a modern katana with a plastic tsuba (guard) shoe-string ito (handle wrap) and a rat-tail tang, which will snap upon any heavy use. But there are so many issues (poor steel, poor balance, poor cross-section, ect.) that it would be impossible to list them all here. But as for modern sword smithing using traditional methods, things are a bit more complicated, and hopefully I'll be able to touch on it later.