Smallsword with interesting markings for comment

Valjhun · 20th February 2013, 01:37 PM

Got thatone yesterday.
Lenght of blade 81 cm, missing knucklebow.

Nice markings/engravings to the blade.

It came with and old expertise from the Slovenian National Museum from the late 60's, wich is very funny, it translates to:

"Sword with Double-edged blade, a work of Giorgio Giorgutti from Belluno, form 16th century, or just adorned with etching technique by Giorgio Ghisi in the 16th century. The presence of St. Mark lion notes that it was made for venetian army or navy. The hilt eastern and later:"

Any comment wellcome!

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2013, 11:19 PM

In Boccia & Coelho (1975, #582/583) are two examples of two-hander swords by brothers Giuseppe and Giorgio Giorguitti of Agordo dating from 1610-20. These both are apparantly to the Council of Ten in Venice (CX269/70). I think this would concur with the lion of St.Mark of Venice.
It seems these serpentine type marks also concur with other weaponry in Venice of this period with somewhat similar type marks (op.cit. 585).

Since Slovenia was of course close to Croatia, who for centuries furnished forces to military and forces for the Doge of Venice, it does not seem at all surprising for this sword to come from this provenance.

The smallsword/court sword hilt is also consistant with examples seen of similar configuration from this period and regions in Italy, but it would appear the knuckleguard is gone. I have not found a blade with this type fuller and forte arrangement, but certainly seems consistant with 17th century blades similar.

Extremely nice!!!

Atlantia · 20th February 2013, 11:29 PM

Hi Valjhun

It's a very nice sword.
There is something so pure and perfect about the smallsword!

I think the blade might be earlier than the hilt.

I like these rococo completely brass hilts, I've got one myself and I keep thinking I should tag one of the smallsword-nuts and get the whole history of them.

I'd put the hilt at around the mid 18th.
I love them.
You see them with slight variation from a very 'military' lean and 'boat' guard as well.

Great sword.

Atlantia · 20th February 2013, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In Boccia & Coelho (1975, #582/583) are two examples of two-hander swords by brothers Giuseppe and Giorgio Giorguitti of Agordo dating from 1610-20. These both are apparantly to the Council of Ten in Venice (CX269/70). I think this would concur with the lion of St.Mark of Venice.
It seems these serpentine type marks also concur with other weaponry in Venice of this period with somewhat similar type marks (op.cit. 585).

Since Slovenia was of course close to Croatia, who for centuries furnished forces to military and forces for the Doge of Venice, it does not seem at all surprising for this sword to come from this provenance.

The smallsword/court sword hilt is also consistant with examples seen of similar configuration from this period and regions in Italy, but it would appear the knuckleguard is gone. I have not found a blade with this type fuller and forte arrangement, but certainly seems consistant with 17th century blades similar.

Extremely nice!!!

Ah Jim!

Crossed posts

You humble me again with your encyclopedic knowledge.
I agree the blade could be 17thc!
What about these rococo brass hilts?
...Didn't we talk about the one I've got?

Best
Gene

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2013, 12:51 AM

Thanks Gene!

The smallsword really is an intriguing field of arms collecting, and one virtually untapped until about a decade or so ago. It seems collectors were typically not as attracted to them as they were considered primarily civilian and not as interesting, and quite frankly resources and identification material was tough to find.

Actually, these were far more present in military circumstances than often realized as most officers used thier own smallswords in many cases, as much in official capacity as in private affairs. Actually I hadnt realized that these type 'court' swords with the typical pas d'ane and shellguard were in use so early in the 17th century, and I had considered these mostly a form of the 18th century.

I do recall we had some conversations on one of yours some time ago, and absolutely, getting into these can become pretty consuming!!

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 21st February 2013, 01:23 AM

Thank Jim&Gene!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since Slovenia was of course close to Croatia, who for centuries furnished forces to military and forces for the Doge of Venice, it does not seem at all surprising for this sword to come from this provenance.

Well, slovenian coast area cities (Koper, Izola, Piran) were for centuries part of the Venetian republic. There are also a couple of Doges that were actually Slovenes in origin. There is a lot of speculation where the Venetian repubblic originated from in the dark ages. Some theories tell us that were Slovenes that actually built Venice in the first place and it is named after them. Not so unprobable if you think about the verbal root SloVENTia compared to VENeTIa and the fact that in latin the syllable SL or SLO is unpronounceable. And there are a lot of other pseudo proofs too, like the Karst plateau that was completely deforested and that the city of Venice actually stands on that trees etc etc
But try to go explain that to the Italians

As for the sword, I faill to see the Lion... Is it in the stylised engraving at the forte? .

Hotspur · 21st February 2013, 04:01 AM

I dunno, the blade could easily be in the mid eighteenth century range. See Bashford&Dean for a similar cross section. #66
http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/intro.html
http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/p14.html

Granted that the blade decoration is somewhat different and a different origin. Considering the other roccoco elements, I would not necessarily date the hilt and blade as seperate entities.

Here is a shard of one of those blades I could not resist.

Cheers

GC

20th February 2013, 01:37 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Smallsword with interesting markings for comment Got thatone yesterday. Lenght of blade 81 cm, missing knucklebow. Nice markings/engravings to the blade. It came with and old expertise from the Slovenian National Museum from the late 60's, wich is very funny, it translates to: "Sword with Double-edged blade, a work of Giorgio Giorgutti from Belluno, form 16th century, or just adorned with etching technique by Giorgio Ghisi in the 16th century. The presence of St. Mark lion notes that it was made for venetian army or navy. The hilt eastern and later:" Any comment wellcome! Attached Images

21st February 2013, 04:01 AM	#7
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	I dunno, the blade could easily be in the mid eighteenth century range. See Bashford&Dean for a similar cross section. #66 http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/intro.html http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/p14.html Granted that the blade decoration is somewhat different and a different origin. Considering the other roccoco elements, I would not necessarily date the hilt and blade as seperate entities. Here is a shard of one of those blades I could not resist. Cheers GC Attached Images

20th February 2013, 11:19 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	In Boccia & Coelho (1975, #582/583) are two examples of two-hander swords by brothers Giuseppe and Giorgio Giorguitti of Agordo dating from 1610-20. These both are apparantly to the Council of Ten in Venice (CX269/70). I think this would concur with the lion of St.Mark of Venice. It seems these serpentine type marks also concur with other weaponry in Venice of this period with somewhat similar type marks (op.cit. 585). Since Slovenia was of course close to Croatia, who for centuries furnished forces to military and forces for the Doge of Venice, it does not seem at all surprising for this sword to come from this provenance. The smallsword/court sword hilt is also consistant with examples seen of similar configuration from this period and regions in Italy, but it would appear the knuckleguard is gone. I have not found a blade with this type fuller and forte arrangement, but certainly seems consistant with 17th century blades similar. Extremely nice!!!

20th February 2013, 11:29 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Valjhun It's a very nice sword. There is something so pure and perfect about the smallsword! I think the blade might be earlier than the hilt. I like these rococo completely brass hilts, I've got one myself and I keep thinking I should tag one of the smallsword-nuts and get the whole history of them. I'd put the hilt at around the mid 18th. I love them. You see them with slight variation from a very 'military' lean and 'boat' guard as well. Great sword.

21st February 2013, 12:51 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Thanks Gene! The smallsword really is an intriguing field of arms collecting, and one virtually untapped until about a decade or so ago. It seems collectors were typically not as attracted to them as they were considered primarily civilian and not as interesting, and quite frankly resources and identification material was tough to find. Actually, these were far more present in military circumstances than often realized as most officers used thier own smallswords in many cases, as much in official capacity as in private affairs. Actually I hadnt realized that these type 'court' swords with the typical pas d'ane and shellguard were in use so early in the 17th century, and I had considered these mostly a form of the 18th century. I do recall we had some conversations on one of yours some time ago, and absolutely, getting into these can become pretty consuming!! All the best, Jim