pronunciation question: keris vs. kris

TikiD · 12th January 2009, 07:10 PM

Hello to all,

This may seem a stupid question, but I've read conflicting information about this and it's bothering me. Is "keris" pronounced the same as "kris," so that both sound like "kris" with one syllable? I've read in some places that "keris" is pronounced with two syllables with the second syllable being stressed, so that it sounds like "keh-REES."

Curious minds would like to know how to speak about the keris in public without making a public fool of self!

Thank you.

TikiD

Henk · 12th January 2009, 08:14 PM

TikiD,

If you pronounce keris as kris you won't make a public fool of yourself here in the Netherlands. Here we pronounce keris as kris. And most Dutch don't even know what you mean with keris. In most Dutch publications the keris is written down as Kris.

Tim Simmons · 12th January 2009, 08:18 PM

Untill being a member here I and most other British collectors always called them Kris also.

Rick · 12th January 2009, 09:28 PM

I once asked a woman from Malaka how she pronounced the word .
It was "k'rees" with just a trip of the tongue over the R .

Probably varies from region to region .

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2009, 10:07 PM

You're pretty much spot-on with that description Rick.

In fact, the word "kris" has come into the English language and is listed by the Oxford Dictionary.

Since it has come into the English language, it is legitimate to give it an unaccented pronunciation. Whenever a native English speaker asks me for the "correct" pronunciation, I simply say that it is like the given name for a person:- "Chris".

Of course this "chris", or "kris" is too flat a pronunciation if it were to be used in an Indonesian context, but if we are speaking English, there is no necessity to try to imitate the accent used in speaking the Indonesian language.

This word has been represented a number of ways in European languages, the two spellings already mentioned can be extended to include "cris" and "creese".

In my household we normally conduct our conversations in three languages:- English is the dominant one, but we also use Indonesian and Javanese. Whenever I find it necessary to use an Indonesian or Javanese word when the rest of the speech is in English, I do not take much care with the accent, simply because it is too difficult, and in fact sounds weird to jump from a broad Australian accent to a foriegn accent.However, when the conversation is in Indonesian, I change my accent, and if I need to use an English word, I give it an Indonesian accented pronunciation. I have friends who are Italian, and Estonian, and Ukrainian, and they have told me they do a similar thing.

For a native English speaker the pronunciation of the word as "chris" is completely OK.

ganjawulung · 12th January 2009, 11:58 PM

IMHO, both words are correct from different views. Keris is Javanese and Indonesian pronounciation, and kris is English or other language than Indonesian pronounciation.

Indonesian tongue -- and mostly Javanese -- tends to add more vocal-syllabel to pronounce a certain word. Such as "spoor" (train) in Dutch language. The Javanese spells it as "sepur" for the same meaning. It is the same with "station" in English, or "station" (?) in Dutch. Javanese spells it as "setasiun".

But in "older" Javanese language, people used to find word -- written in one syllable, but actually must be spelled in two syllables, like "krta" (with special mark above the "r") which means "town". It must be spelled as "kerta". Or, "pakrti" as "pakarti"... Maybe too, for "kris" in old Javanese or Sanskrit which might be spelled as "keris".

GANJAWULUNG

sjors · 13th January 2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

or "station" (?) in Dutch

Dear Ganjawulung, you're right, station is the proper Dutch word...
(and in real the Indonesian pronouncation sounds even more like the Dutch pronouncation then the English one

)

ganjawulung · 14th January 2009, 04:22 AM

Thank You, Sjors,

And this is just an intermezzo -- if you browse the internet with your search-engine, you will find several amazing sites of 'another keris'... Keris.net for instance, is the site of a freelance computer programmer whose name is actually Chris...

In Malaysia? Keris College is a name of an educational institution, the member of Keris Group Company since 1996, I think it is nothing to do with "your keris world".

In Korea? Keris is the abbreviation of Korea Educational and Research Information Service since 1999, of course it is nothing to do too with this Keris Warung Kopi.

In the United States? Keris Industries is a company -- installing new residential garage doors and openers... And also, if you are pet's lover then you will find "Keris-Lhasa-Apso", a puppy breeder company in Seattle, WA.

Even in the "keris country" like Indonesia, we have too a "keris" company that doesn't produce kerises at all. And that is "Batik Keris" -- a prominent batik (textile) company from Solo, Central Jawa...

GANJAWULUNG

Rick · 15th January 2009, 01:23 AM

Then there is the beer ...

TikiD · 15th January 2009, 05:20 AM

Thank you for this discussion. I think if I were to have a discussion with someone over this and want to argue for an authentic Javanese pronounciation, I might offer what Rick has said here:

"'k'rees' with just a trip of the tongue over the R."

Two syllables, emphasis on the second syllable.

But, of course, not many would use that pronounciation outside of Indonesia!

KuKulzA28 · 22nd January 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, when the conversation is in Indonesian, I change my accent, and if I need to use an English word, I give it an Indonesian accented pronunciation. I have friends who are Italian, and Estonian, and Ukrainian, and they have told me they do a similar thing.

For a native English speaker the pronunciation of the word as "chris" is completely OK.

I'm Taiwanese Ameican, and I can speak English just fine, or Mandarin just fine... and I'm losing my fluency in Taiwanese.. but yes, pretty much the same thing... sometimes certain accents and sound just flow better with certain languages!

12th January 2009, 07:10 PM	#1
TikiD Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	pronunciation question: keris vs. kris Hello to all, This may seem a stupid question, but I've read conflicting information about this and it's bothering me. Is "keris" pronounced the same as "kris," so that both sound like "kris" with one syllable? I've read in some places that "keris" is pronounced with two syllables with the second syllable being stressed, so that it sounds like "keh-REES." Curious minds would like to know how to speak about the keris in public without making a public fool of self! Thank you. TikiD

12th January 2009, 11:58 PM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	IMHO, both words are correct from different views. Keris is Javanese and Indonesian pronounciation, and kris is English or other language than Indonesian pronounciation. Indonesian tongue -- and mostly Javanese -- tends to add more vocal-syllabel to pronounce a certain word. Such as "spoor" (train) in Dutch language. The Javanese spells it as "sepur" for the same meaning. It is the same with "station" in English, or "station" (?) in Dutch. Javanese spells it as "setasiun". But in "older" Javanese language, people used to find word -- written in one syllable, but actually must be spelled in two syllables, like "krta" (with special mark above the "r") which means "town". It must be spelled as "kerta". Or, "pakrti" as "pakarti"... Maybe too, for "kris" in old Javanese or Sanskrit which might be spelled as "keris". GANJAWULUNG Last edited by ganjawulung; 13th January 2009 at 03:43 AM.

12th January 2009, 08:14 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	TikiD, If you pronounce keris as kris you won't make a public fool of yourself here in the Netherlands. Here we pronounce keris as kris. And most Dutch don't even know what you mean with keris. In most Dutch publications the keris is written down as Kris.

12th January 2009, 08:18 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Untill being a member here I and most other British collectors always called them Kris also.

12th January 2009, 09:28 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I once asked a woman from Malaka how she pronounced the word . It was "k'rees" with just a trip of the tongue over the R . Probably varies from region to region .

12th January 2009, 10:07 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	You're pretty much spot-on with that description Rick. In fact, the word "kris" has come into the English language and is listed by the Oxford Dictionary. Since it has come into the English language, it is legitimate to give it an unaccented pronunciation. Whenever a native English speaker asks me for the "correct" pronunciation, I simply say that it is like the given name for a person:- "Chris". Of course this "chris", or "kris" is too flat a pronunciation if it were to be used in an Indonesian context, but if we are speaking English, there is no necessity to try to imitate the accent used in speaking the Indonesian language. This word has been represented a number of ways in European languages, the two spellings already mentioned can be extended to include "cris" and "creese". In my household we normally conduct our conversations in three languages:- English is the dominant one, but we also use Indonesian and Javanese. Whenever I find it necessary to use an Indonesian or Javanese word when the rest of the speech is in English, I do not take much care with the accent, simply because it is too difficult, and in fact sounds weird to jump from a broad Australian accent to a foriegn accent.However, when the conversation is in Indonesian, I change my accent, and if I need to use an English word, I give it an Indonesian accented pronunciation. I have friends who are Italian, and Estonian, and Ukrainian, and they have told me they do a similar thing. For a native English speaker the pronunciation of the word as "chris" is completely OK.

14th January 2009, 04:22 AM	#8
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thank You, Sjors, And this is just an intermezzo -- if you browse the internet with your search-engine, you will find several amazing sites of 'another keris'... Keris.net for instance, is the site of a freelance computer programmer whose name is actually Chris... In Malaysia? Keris College is a name of an educational institution, the member of Keris Group Company since 1996, I think it is nothing to do with "your keris world". In Korea? Keris is the abbreviation of Korea Educational and Research Information Service since 1999, of course it is nothing to do too with this Keris Warung Kopi. In the United States? Keris Industries is a company -- installing new residential garage doors and openers... And also, if you are pet's lover then you will find "Keris-Lhasa-Apso", a puppy breeder company in Seattle, WA. Even in the "keris country" like Indonesia, we have too a "keris" company that doesn't produce kerises at all. And that is "Batik Keris" -- a prominent batik (textile) company from Solo, Central Jawa... GANJAWULUNG

15th January 2009, 01:23 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Then there is the beer ...

15th January 2009, 05:20 AM	#10
TikiD Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Thank you for this discussion. I think if I were to have a discussion with someone over this and want to argue for an authentic Javanese pronounciation, I might offer what Rick has said here: "'k'rees' with just a trip of the tongue over the R." Two syllables, emphasis on the second syllable. But, of course, not many would use that pronounciation outside of Indonesia!