Hospitallier?

Yannis · 30th October 2005, 02:43 PM

It is not ethnographic but I am almost sure you will find it interesting and some people here will help to identify it.

It is a society sword, but we don’t know few things.

1. What society?
2. When it was made?
3. Does it carry special meanings?

The hilt is cast bronze. The scabbard is wood covered by black sharkskin leather and with engraved bronze, tip is missing.
The blade has nothing to do with society swords we see often. It is a real fighting blade of smalsword. It has diamond cross section (raised rib) with two wide fullers. It is hand forged and has some marks both sides.
There is an inscription on the back side of the scabbard with fine lettering in French:
“Le chevalier +F+ Jean Paleologus grand prieur de Grece … de Thrace commandeur de Corinthe …. tres cher frere et ami chevalier Jean Jaques Watts"

What is +F+ for?
Paleologus was the family name of the last Byzantine emperors and there are still people who claim them as ancestors.
Watts could be the John James Watts, an English man, one of the persons who revived the Order of the Hospital of Saint-John of Jerusalem in Britain back in 1857.
There are few maltese crosses on the sword so I assume that the society could be the Order of Malta. But I am not sure.
Also I cannot identify the other insignia, the marks on the blade and the four letters on the hilt P D E P.

Anyone can help? Please

ingelred · 30th October 2005, 06:57 PM

Hello,

I do not know anything about this kind of smallsword but on one picture I read the ending "-thal" which indicates French Klingenthal manufacture, approximately late 18th to mid 19th century.

Best regards, Helge

fernando · 8th November 2005, 08:52 PM

Hi Yannis

PDEP are the latin initials for Pro Deo et Patria = For God and Fatherland, a motto much used by Orders and other forces.
In this link you will find all the various marking combinations, both maker's and blade inspector's, through all Klingenthal existance. With a bit of patience, you may be able to precise the date of your sword.

http://www.chez.com/klingenthal/

Kind regards

Mark · 9th November 2005, 01:09 AM

I did a little digging and found the following:

The pendant Maltese cross & crown below the winged thing on the handle very closely resembles the cross pendant worn by members of the Order in the 18th C. (maybe later, too, but the ones I saw represented in later paintings & photos were a little different). I found nothing indicating that the wing and lightening bolt symbol is associated with the Order, or the motto that fernando has provided. The coat of arms is most likely of the owner, as "16 quarters" of nobility are a requirement for membership -- i.e., as far back as your great-great grandparents. Didn't find that one particularly, or reference to this guy Paleologus. Notably, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John (etc.), which is the only Order of the four that can legitimately trace back to the medieval Knights Hospitaller that is still Catholic, does not have a priory in Greece, or even an embassy there. So, while it does appear that the sword is connected to the Knights of Malta, it would have to be with one of the other three Protestant branches. The John Watts connection would point to an English Order, but there are a bunch that claim some connection to the Knights Hospitallar. The one that is recognized as legitimate is the Venerable Order of St. John in Britain, which has been in exhistance since the Reformation.

Reauz · 9th November 2005, 04:09 AM

Have you looked in Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry?

There is one picture that you posted that shows a coat of arms - during my research this year, I have found several good websites that explain the shields. As you know, each symbol is significant, but also the number of divisions a shield is divided into. You could call it the sword's heiroglyph (sp?).

You may already have decoded it, but I will study it. Good deciphering lesson for me.

You were blessed to find it - certainly pleased my eyes.

Roz

Yannis · 9th November 2005, 09:57 AM

Thank you all for your help

I found a trace for the mysterious symbol on the hilt and it is very strange. If you like the “Da Vinci Code” will love this

http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/parad166.htm

Mark

As far as I can search, it was never a priory of any Hospitallier order in modern Greece. But there are some ties.

Two years after the greek revolution of 1821, the order made an agreement with some leaders to help the revolution with money and men and receive the island of Rhodes (after its liberation). They wanted Rhodes because of their medieval history. It was in their stronghold from 1310 to 1523 before they get Malta. The agreement broke because European countries and the new greek government didn’t like it.

If we accept that this sword was given to John James Watts, of the English branch of the Order, it must be some time around 1850. If so, the blade is earlier because Klingenthal had stopped production.

The text of dedication is French but if Jean Paleologus was in Greece and Watts was English the text should be Greek or English. So I suppose that this Paleologus was living in France and he wanted to revive the order of Malta in Greece. Apparently he didn’t made it.

Roz

I have not decoded it and I have no sources to do it. If you can help, I will be grateful. Thank you

yuanzhumin · 9th November 2005, 10:56 AM

Hello
Sorry to interfere in the debate, I couldn't help reading your interesting exchange about this sword.
My field of knowledge on this subject is close to nothing, but I can just make a suggestion : if you are looking for more infos, why not try to contact the descendants of the people you are talking about ? May be they could have some elements to answer your questions.
Kind regards,
Yuanzhumin

Mark · 9th November 2005, 06:39 PM

Good suggestion to track down descendents. Another would be to contact the Order directly. One question I had was whether or not this Watts fellow was connected to the Venerable Order of St. John (which is the only English Hospitallar Order with a real link to the medieval one), or to one of the numerous organizations that claim a more tenuous tie, including the Masonic Knights Templar, and others that mostly claim a link via an extinct Russian Order. The Venerable Order has had continuous existance in England, as it was simply a transformation of the English priories into a separate, Protestant entity after the Reformation in the 16th century, so if Watts "revived" it, I would think it was some other one, as the Venerable Order was in no need of reviving.

By the way, I would hazard a guess that +F+ stands for "Frere," or maybe "Frater," i.e., "Brother."

yuanzhumin · 13th November 2005, 01:35 PM

After the suggestion of the other day, few more infos for Yannis.
1- Paleologus: it is the family name in english and in latin when, in fact, this family was ruling the Byzantine Empire - the last family to do it. But in France, where many of their descendants lived, the family name is different. It is Paleologue, with 'ue' at the end, instead of 'us'.
2-I'm french, but quite far away from this country as I've been living in Taiwan for close to 15 years, but, may be, if someone from this Forum lives in France, he can help you to get in touch with the french descendants of the Paleologue. I know there are still some people from this family as I had some in my class and school 25 years ago. For sure, few of them are living in Paris or in the close suburbs around. If you contact them, I'm sure one of them may have some informations.
3-For the order of Malta, the most well known name of the sovereign military hospitaller order of Saint John of Jerusalem, they have a website (http://www.orderofmalta.org/) and a special status as an independant State that gives the order the right to have a seat at the UNESCO, the Europe council, and few other official organisations, so it would not be difficult to get in contact with them and check with them if the symbols on your sword is from this order, if there was a jean Paleologue as a member before.
Best,
yuanzhumin

30th October 2005, 02:43 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Hospitallier? It is not ethnographic but I am almost sure you will find it interesting and some people here will help to identify it. It is a society sword, but we don’t know few things. 1. What society? 2. When it was made? 3. Does it carry special meanings? The hilt is cast bronze. The scabbard is wood covered by black sharkskin leather and with engraved bronze, tip is missing. The blade has nothing to do with society swords we see often. It is a real fighting blade of smalsword. It has diamond cross section (raised rib) with two wide fullers. It is hand forged and has some marks both sides. There is an inscription on the back side of the scabbard with fine lettering in French: “Le chevalier +F+ Jean Paleologus grand prieur de Grece … de Thrace commandeur de Corinthe …. tres cher frere et ami chevalier Jean Jaques Watts" What is +F+ for? Paleologus was the family name of the last Byzantine emperors and there are still people who claim them as ancestors. Watts could be the John James Watts, an English man, one of the persons who revived the Order of the Hospital of Saint-John of Jerusalem in Britain back in 1857. There are few maltese crosses on the sword so I assume that the society could be the Order of Malta. But I am not sure. Also I cannot identify the other insignia, the marks on the blade and the four letters on the hilt P D E P. Anyone can help? Please Attached Images

9th November 2005, 04:09 AM	#5
Reauz Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2	Heraldry/Coats of Arms Have you looked in Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry? There is one picture that you posted that shows a coat of arms - during my research this year, I have found several good websites that explain the shields. As you know, each symbol is significant, but also the number of divisions a shield is divided into. You could call it the sword's heiroglyph (sp?). You may already have decoded it, but I will study it. Good deciphering lesson for me. You were blessed to find it - certainly pleased my eyes. Roz

9th November 2005, 10:56 AM	#7
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	A suggestion Hello Sorry to interfere in the debate, I couldn't help reading your interesting exchange about this sword. My field of knowledge on this subject is close to nothing, but I can just make a suggestion : if you are looking for more infos, why not try to contact the descendants of the people you are talking about ? May be they could have some elements to answer your questions. Kind regards, Yuanzhumin

13th November 2005, 01:35 PM	#9
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Suggestion part 2 After the suggestion of the other day, few more infos for Yannis. 1- Paleologus: it is the family name in english and in latin when, in fact, this family was ruling the Byzantine Empire - the last family to do it. But in France, where many of their descendants lived, the family name is different. It is Paleologue, with 'ue' at the end, instead of 'us'. 2-I'm french, but quite far away from this country as I've been living in Taiwan for close to 15 years, but, may be, if someone from this Forum lives in France, he can help you to get in touch with the french descendants of the Paleologue. I know there are still some people from this family as I had some in my class and school 25 years ago. For sure, few of them are living in Paris or in the close suburbs around. If you contact them, I'm sure one of them may have some informations. 3-For the order of Malta, the most well known name of the sovereign military hospitaller order of Saint John of Jerusalem, they have a website (http://www.orderofmalta.org/) and a special status as an independant State that gives the order the right to have a seat at the UNESCO, the Europe council, and few other official organisations, so it would not be difficult to get in contact with them and check with them if the symbols on your sword is from this order, if there was a jean Paleologue as a member before. Best, yuanzhumin

30th October 2005, 06:57 PM	#2
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello, I do not know anything about this kind of smallsword but on one picture I read the ending "-thal" which indicates French Klingenthal manufacture, approximately late 18th to mid 19th century. Best regards, Helge

8th November 2005, 08:52 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Yannis PDEP are the latin initials for Pro Deo et Patria = For God and Fatherland, a motto much used by Orders and other forces. In this link you will find all the various marking combinations, both maker's and blade inspector's, through all Klingenthal existance. With a bit of patience, you may be able to precise the date of your sword. http://www.chez.com/klingenthal/ Kind regards

9th November 2005, 01:09 AM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I did a little digging and found the following: The pendant Maltese cross & crown below the winged thing on the handle very closely resembles the cross pendant worn by members of the Order in the 18th C. (maybe later, too, but the ones I saw represented in later paintings & photos were a little different). I found nothing indicating that the wing and lightening bolt symbol is associated with the Order, or the motto that fernando has provided. The coat of arms is most likely of the owner, as "16 quarters" of nobility are a requirement for membership -- i.e., as far back as your great-great grandparents. Didn't find that one particularly, or reference to this guy Paleologus. Notably, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John (etc.), which is the only Order of the four that can legitimately trace back to the medieval Knights Hospitaller that is still Catholic, does not have a priory in Greece, or even an embassy there. So, while it does appear that the sword is connected to the Knights of Malta, it would have to be with one of the other three Protestant branches. The John Watts connection would point to an English Order, but there are a bunch that claim some connection to the Knights Hospitallar. The one that is recognized as legitimate is the Venerable Order of St. John in Britain, which has been in exhistance since the Reformation.

9th November 2005, 09:57 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Thank you all for your help I found a trace for the mysterious symbol on the hilt and it is very strange. If you like the “Da Vinci Code” will love this http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/parad166.htm Mark As far as I can search, it was never a priory of any Hospitallier order in modern Greece. But there are some ties. Two years after the greek revolution of 1821, the order made an agreement with some leaders to help the revolution with money and men and receive the island of Rhodes (after its liberation). They wanted Rhodes because of their medieval history. It was in their stronghold from 1310 to 1523 before they get Malta. The agreement broke because European countries and the new greek government didn’t like it. If we accept that this sword was given to John James Watts, of the English branch of the Order, it must be some time around 1850. If so, the blade is earlier because Klingenthal had stopped production. The text of dedication is French but if Jean Paleologus was in Greece and Watts was English the text should be Greek or English. So I suppose that this Paleologus was living in France and he wanted to revive the order of Malta in Greece. Apparently he didn’t made it. Roz I have not decoded it and I have no sources to do it. If you can help, I will be grateful. Thank you

9th November 2005, 06:39 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Good suggestion to track down descendents. Another would be to contact the Order directly. One question I had was whether or not this Watts fellow was connected to the Venerable Order of St. John (which is the only English Hospitallar Order with a real link to the medieval one), or to one of the numerous organizations that claim a more tenuous tie, including the Masonic Knights Templar, and others that mostly claim a link via an extinct Russian Order. The Venerable Order has had continuous existance in England, as it was simply a transformation of the English priories into a separate, Protestant entity after the Reformation in the 16th century, so if Watts "revived" it, I would think it was some other one, as the Venerable Order was in no need of reviving. By the way, I would hazard a guess that +F+ stands for "Frere," or maybe "Frater," i.e., "Brother."