A 19th century naval dirk from Eastern Europe??

not2sharp · 10th March 2006, 06:44 PM

We may have looked at this before. But, I just came across it in the collection again and I am still not sure where to place it. My initial though was an early English Naval dirk influenced by asian design. (Sort of a midshipman's mameluke) Any suggestions?

n2s

ariel · 10th March 2006, 09:37 PM

The scabbard looks home made with standard parts.
The blade also looks shortened.
Are we sure it irt was intended to look like that or is it a reworked sword?

not2sharp · 10th March 2006, 11:31 PM

Ariel,

I believe it was intended to look like that:

1) The blade taper has the strong ending withing a few inches of the guard. If it were a full sword it would have extened much further and grinding it down wouldn't have made sense and would have altered the shape of the fuller.

2) The blade thickness is about a 1/4 dropping to 3/16 a few inches in front of the guard. That seems light for most swords.

3) The blade curvature is fairly servere. Extending the curve for a further 12 to 20 inches would leave with something shaped like a shotel; and, this doesn't strike me as a shotel.

4) The handle is very small, perhaps made for a hand that that is no more then 2-1/2 inches wide. Again, consistent with the blade, but inconsistent with the notion of hacking down a sword blade. You would have to cut the tang considerably.

5) The scabbard is significantly old. The whole piece strikes me as having been overly cleaned or restored (as in the outside of the scabbard may have been painted or tarred) Which gives it a fresher look then really should have.

6) The mounts are fairly heavy steel. Simple, but more like military mounts then a decorative casting or backyard project.

On second though this may not be a dirk at all. It looks more like a 18-19th century child's sword.

n2s

ariel · 11th March 2006, 04:51 AM

The handle looks too big for a child.

not2sharp · 15th March 2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The handle looks too big for a child.

Perhaps; if so, what do we have here?

n2s

Andrew · 15th March 2006, 08:34 PM

For a woman, perhaps?

Tim Simmons · 15th March 2006, 09:38 PM

Last weekend I nearly bought a large curved bowie style knife from North Indian/Nepal, the scabbard was more like a kukri scabbard and badly split putting me off. The handle was really rather similar as was the blade but with a enlarged clipped tip. I wonder is this from the subcontinent? The scabbard might suggest so? A nice blade, nice knife. Tim

not2sharp · 16th March 2006, 06:28 PM

Tim,

The sheath is leather over wood with hand stiching along the back (much like a khukuri); but, I had not associated this with Nepal. Can you post or link a photo of that other knife?

n2s

Tim Simmons · 16th March 2006, 07:38 PM

Sorry n2 but the knife is in an antique shop. It is quite substantial like a kukri. If it tickles your fancy you can always PM me. Tim

spiral · 17th March 2006, 04:18 PM

I realy like it N2S but havent a factual clue what it is.

My fantasy though is Turkish Navy or Barbary pirate.

Something along those lines.

Spiral

not2sharp · 17th March 2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I realy like it N2S but havent a factual clue what it is.

My fantasy though is Turkish Navy or Barbary pirate.

Something along those lines.

Spiral

That was my first impression too. Then again this whole Nepal angle is quite fascinating.

n2s

Valjhun · 20th March 2006, 06:02 PM

It remainds me, especially the scabbard, to the British East India Co. officer sword... Nice dagger! I'd love to have it!

Tim Simmons · 23rd March 2006, 09:39 PM

This knife has just finished on ebay, I did not bid, no one else did either, could have got it for two portions. I do not think it is that old and in my opinion the one in question is not old. I think you can see the N.Indian/Pakistan/Afghan origin in both knives. This is almost identical to to knife with the spit scabbard I did not buy.

Tim Simmons · 23rd March 2006, 09:50 PM

However I have bought this N.Indian/Nepalese? knife. I have seen these before but always too expensive for my taste but this one was cheap. Am I right thinking of Nepal. These last two posts could be unofficial knives from ww2. Tim

spiral · 23rd March 2006, 09:54 PM

I think you will find thats the first picture is standard Indian tourist junk from Dehra dun the home of lion headed, chrome plated kukris, Tim.

The sword looks much higher quality to my eye & I cant personaly see any design simmalaritys, but perhaps the man with the sword to hand can?

The second picture is a Nepali knife & could possibly be WW2 era I would say.

Congratulations on that one.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 23rd March 2006, 10:02 PM

Thank you, another stab in the dark, sometimes it works. About the other knife look at the same handle forms I cannot see a lot of qualitative difference myself but this is not an area I am really familiar with. Tim

spiral · 23rd March 2006, 10:58 PM

I can see what you mean Tim but I think there a lot more differences than similaritys myself.

Spiral

not2sharp · 6th April 2006, 03:30 PM

This is an early 19th century Georgian naval dirk. Note the similarities with the knife at the top of this thread. I believe our knife is an example of this type of dirk.

n2s

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2006, 05:39 PM

This dirk does look like it did belong to a naval officer. I am not sure about the first one, it does not smack of officer stuff. If you look at the guard on the first example and the Indian? knife there is similarity too. It might just be a naval fighting knife maybe that is why the scabbard lacks that 19th cent officer quality.

Rick · 6th April 2006, 06:35 PM

If the piece under discussion is indeed a Mid's dirk then we may have to take into account that not all Midshipmen came from the same social strata ; some even came up through the Hawse Hole . One carried what one could afford .

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2006, 09:15 PM

Son of a gun!!! That just would not do in the Royal Navy

"Bligh" came from the ranks, not a gentleman but a bloody good sailor.

Rick · 7th April 2006, 07:26 AM

Maybe it's from our Damned Colonial Navy then Tim .

Remember Java vs Constitution ?

/Let's not talk about Shannon vs Chesapeake though .

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2006, 05:25 AM

In looking at this example posted by N2S I am inclined to think of this weapon as a dirk for a naval officer, and although not necessarily British EIC as suggested by Valihun, it does very much seem British. After the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt the mameluke form sabres did become popular with British as well as French officers, and the distinctive Ottoman hilt forms in particular. In the early 19th century there were a great deal of military outfitters in British occupied areas of the Ottoman sphere, especially in Egypt and Aden in Arabia. It would seem that such a dirk may have been fashioned for sale to British naval officers near the close of the Georgian period, however these were strictly for dress wear. Gilkerson in "Boarders Away" (p.115) notes that "..no battle use of a curved naval dirk is known, and it cannot be considered as ever intended for anything other than dress wear".
The curved blade in dirk size according to Gilkerson (op.cit.) was inefficient at best, noting that the true fighting dirk was straight bladed and for of course, the thrust.
Annis & May ("Swords for Sea Service" p.75-76) note also the apparant disregard for curved dirks as weapons, but interestingly do note that there are a number of them with curved blades and 'mameluke' pommels in the National Maritime Museum in England.
It would seem that while the dirk was of course known in other European navies, the mounts were most likely with zoomorphic pommels reflecting those typically seen on officers dress swords.

These are simply some observations from standard references that may pertain to the example shown, however the blade seems to be quite substantial and quite as deadly as any curved Oriental dagger whether intended for combat or not. In any case, a very attractive weapon.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 8th April 2006, 08:07 AM

Jim,
If you are calling these books "standard references", I dread to think what is the meaning of "obscure" and "esoteric" in your vocabulary!
Where did you come from with these sources? Your library must be a treasure trove! And, obviously, you read this stuff... I am VERY impressed!

not2sharp · 9th April 2006, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If the piece under discussion is indeed a Mid's dirk then we may have to take into account that not all Midshipmen came from the same social strata ; some even came up through the Hawse Hole . One carried what one could afford .

The period should also be factored in. This example may be early dirk. The Scottish dirk during this period went from a rather ordinary if serious looking fighting knife to become an elaborate largely ornamental item of dress.

n2s

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2006, 05:06 AM

Hi Ariel,
The "Swords for Sea Service" volumes I guess became sort of standard reference for British regulation swords over 20 years ago when I was involved in that sector of collecting. The Gilkerson book is actually recent and also from London.
Thanks very much for the compliment

!!!
All the best,
Jim

Dmitry · 14th August 2009, 08:52 AM

IMHO, this piece has nothing to do with naval dirks, aside from similar silhouettes. Nor do I see any attempts to emulate period naval dirks in its composition.
As for its proper and definite provenance, I'm afraid I don't have much input. To me it looks like a fantasy piece, perhaps from the Middle East.

Bryan.H · 15th August 2009, 09:03 AM

Just going by the dimensions of the handle (that may accomodate a hand 2.5 inches wide), and looking at the finger-grips, this would seem to be a sword for a child. Even tulwar disc-pommel grips, which are very small, are bigger than this. On a different tack, "minature" swords are known from Europe to Mexico, for cadets, for hunting (as an aristocratic past-time) and status etc.

10th March 2006, 06:44 PM	#1
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	A 19th century naval dirk from Eastern Europe?? We may have looked at this before. But, I just came across it in the collection again and I am still not sure where to place it. My initial though was an early English Naval dirk influenced by asian design. (Sort of a midshipman's mameluke) Any suggestions? n2s

23rd March 2006, 09:39 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This knife has just finished on ebay, I did not bid, no one else did either, could have got it for two portions. I do not think it is that old and in my opinion the one in question is not old. I think you can see the N.Indian/Pakistan/Afghan origin in both knives. This is almost identical to to knife with the spit scabbard I did not buy. Attached Images

23rd March 2006, 09:50 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	However I have bought this N.Indian/Nepalese? knife. I have seen these before but always too expensive for my taste but this one was cheap. Am I right thinking of Nepal. These last two posts could be unofficial knives from ww2. Tim Attached Images

15th August 2009, 09:03 AM	#28
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Boy's sword / Hunting Hanger? Just going by the dimensions of the handle (that may accomodate a hand 2.5 inches wide), and looking at the finger-grips, this would seem to be a sword for a child. Even tulwar disc-pommel grips, which are very small, are bigger than this. On a different tack, "minature" swords are known from Europe to Mexico, for cadets, for hunting (as an aristocratic past-time) and status etc.

10th March 2006, 09:37 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The scabbard looks home made with standard parts. The blade also looks shortened. Are we sure it irt was intended to look like that or is it a reworked sword?

10th March 2006, 11:31 PM	#3
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Ariel, I believe it was intended to look like that: 1) The blade taper has the strong ending withing a few inches of the guard. If it were a full sword it would have extened much further and grinding it down wouldn't have made sense and would have altered the shape of the fuller. 2) The blade thickness is about a 1/4 dropping to 3/16 a few inches in front of the guard. That seems light for most swords. 3) The blade curvature is fairly servere. Extending the curve for a further 12 to 20 inches would leave with something shaped like a shotel; and, this doesn't strike me as a shotel. 4) The handle is very small, perhaps made for a hand that that is no more then 2-1/2 inches wide. Again, consistent with the blade, but inconsistent with the notion of hacking down a sword blade. You would have to cut the tang considerably. 5) The scabbard is significantly old. The whole piece strikes me as having been overly cleaned or restored (as in the outside of the scabbard may have been painted or tarred) Which gives it a fresher look then really should have. 6) The mounts are fairly heavy steel. Simple, but more like military mounts then a decorative casting or backyard project. On second though this may not be a dirk at all. It looks more like a 18-19th century child's sword. n2s

11th March 2006, 04:51 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The handle looks too big for a child.

15th March 2006, 08:34 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	For a woman, perhaps?

15th March 2006, 09:38 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Last weekend I nearly bought a large curved bowie style knife from North Indian/Nepal, the scabbard was more like a kukri scabbard and badly split putting me off. The handle was really rather similar as was the blade but with a enlarged clipped tip. I wonder is this from the subcontinent? The scabbard might suggest so? A nice blade, nice knife. Tim

16th March 2006, 06:28 PM	#8
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Tim, The sheath is leather over wood with hand stiching along the back (much like a khukuri); but, I had not associated this with Nepal. Can you post or link a photo of that other knife? n2s

16th March 2006, 07:38 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Sorry n2 but the knife is in an antique shop. It is quite substantial like a kukri. If it tickles your fancy you can always PM me. Tim

17th March 2006, 04:18 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I realy like it N2S but havent a factual clue what it is. My fantasy though is Turkish Navy or Barbary pirate. Something along those lines. Spiral

20th March 2006, 06:02 PM	#12
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It remainds me, especially the scabbard, to the British East India Co. officer sword... Nice dagger! I'd love to have it!

23rd March 2006, 09:54 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I think you will find thats the first picture is standard Indian tourist junk from Dehra dun the home of lion headed, chrome plated kukris, Tim. The sword looks much higher quality to my eye & I cant personaly see any design simmalaritys, but perhaps the man with the sword to hand can? The second picture is a Nepali knife & could possibly be WW2 era I would say. Congratulations on that one. Spiral

23rd March 2006, 10:02 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thank you, another stab in the dark, sometimes it works. About the other knife look at the same handle forms I cannot see a lot of qualitative difference myself but this is not an area I am really familiar with. Tim

23rd March 2006, 10:58 PM	#17
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I can see what you mean Tim but I think there a lot more differences than similaritys myself. Spiral

6th April 2006, 03:30 PM	#18
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	This is an early 19th century Georgian naval dirk. Note the similarities with the knife at the top of this thread. I believe our knife is an example of this type of dirk. n2s

6th April 2006, 05:39 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This dirk does look like it did belong to a naval officer. I am not sure about the first one, it does not smack of officer stuff. If you look at the guard on the first example and the Indian? knife there is similarity too. It might just be a naval fighting knife maybe that is why the scabbard lacks that 19th cent officer quality.

6th April 2006, 06:35 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	If the piece under discussion is indeed a Mid's dirk then we may have to take into account that not all Midshipmen came from the same social strata ; some even came up through the Hawse Hole . One carried what one could afford .

6th April 2006, 09:15 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Son of a gun!!! That just would not do in the Royal Navy "Bligh" came from the ranks, not a gentleman but a bloody good sailor.

7th April 2006, 07:26 AM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Maybe it's from our Damned Colonial Navy then Tim . Remember Java vs Constitution ? /Let's not talk about Shannon vs Chesapeake though .

8th April 2006, 05:25 AM	#23
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	In looking at this example posted by N2S I am inclined to think of this weapon as a dirk for a naval officer, and although not necessarily British EIC as suggested by Valihun, it does very much seem British. After the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt the mameluke form sabres did become popular with British as well as French officers, and the distinctive Ottoman hilt forms in particular. In the early 19th century there were a great deal of military outfitters in British occupied areas of the Ottoman sphere, especially in Egypt and Aden in Arabia. It would seem that such a dirk may have been fashioned for sale to British naval officers near the close of the Georgian period, however these were strictly for dress wear. Gilkerson in "Boarders Away" (p.115) notes that "..no battle use of a curved naval dirk is known, and it cannot be considered as ever intended for anything other than dress wear". The curved blade in dirk size according to Gilkerson (op.cit.) was inefficient at best, noting that the true fighting dirk was straight bladed and for of course, the thrust. Annis & May ("Swords for Sea Service" p.75-76) note also the apparant disregard for curved dirks as weapons, but interestingly do note that there are a number of them with curved blades and 'mameluke' pommels in the National Maritime Museum in England. It would seem that while the dirk was of course known in other European navies, the mounts were most likely with zoomorphic pommels reflecting those typically seen on officers dress swords. These are simply some observations from standard references that may pertain to the example shown, however the blade seems to be quite substantial and quite as deadly as any curved Oriental dagger whether intended for combat or not. In any case, a very attractive weapon. Best regards, Jim

8th April 2006, 08:07 AM	#24
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, If you are calling these books "standard references", I dread to think what is the meaning of "obscure" and "esoteric" in your vocabulary! Where did you come from with these sources? Your library must be a treasure trove! And, obviously, you read this stuff... I am VERY impressed!

10th April 2006, 05:06 AM	#26
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Ariel, The "Swords for Sea Service" volumes I guess became sort of standard reference for British regulation swords over 20 years ago when I was involved in that sector of collecting. The Gilkerson book is actually recent and also from London. Thanks very much for the compliment !!! All the best, Jim

14th August 2009, 08:52 AM	#27
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	IMHO, this piece has nothing to do with naval dirks, aside from similar silhouettes. Nor do I see any attempts to emulate period naval dirks in its composition. As for its proper and definite provenance, I'm afraid I don't have much input. To me it looks like a fantasy piece, perhaps from the Middle East.