Armour?

[Ahriman]

Oi!
As I've written before, I'm an armourer, with quite limited resources in my favourite area. As I'm writing this here, you can guess what's that area...

So, I'd like to ask you to post as much pictures/drawings of armour from outside europe, especially from the middle-east, India, and the moro region.

And one more thing. I made a demigauntlet for a buyer who wanted eastern looks, flexibility, and durability. The result is attached. I'd like to know if it had ever exist, and if so, where? I'd bet 16th century turkish or persian.


Last thing. Is it possible that such thing existed? It's still unfinished, but even then... I bet you can answer me.


Almost forgot: in the end, it'll have open sides with laces + more plates to the back instead of that "aventail". Stomach area will be moved upwards, and a moro-like skirt will be added. Whole thing will be polished.

[fearn]

Hi Ahriman,

Neat armor. As for the practicality, I'd suggest a simple test: get someone to take a stick to you while you wear it (I won't suggest a sword or a baseball bat). While it's neat, I'm not sure I'd like to wear something that leaves spine and solar plexus so exposed. Getting whacked with something non-lethal might be useful, simply to let you know whether it protects what you want it to protect, at a level you're comfortable with.

F

[Ahriman]

Thanks!
Tried out.. with sword... back area is a problem, but I know that already... The plate sections take full blow without padding very-very well, but the mail components would require the padding. BTW, the plates on the BP are 3.5mm thick, the wire is 2.5mm. Solar plexus will be a bit more protected when I move the abdomen plate up.
But would it have been possible historically?

[Mark]

It does look Indo-Persian. With the variety there is in plate-and-mail armor its possible that something looked like this. In my limited experience I haven't seen any with plates of those shapes, though.

[Tim Simmons]

You have covered your nipples and belly but I could stick my lattest mail piercing Telek right into your heart. Tim

[Aqtai]

Nice work there . The arm-guard looks like a distant relative of a Turco-Iranian bazu band. Although I vaguely remember an Indian vambrace with a similar structure from somewhere. The mail and plate cuirass has a similar structure to a 16th century Turco-Iranian Krug, however the shapes of the actual components are different. Islamic oriental mail and plate armours tended to prefer more geometric shapes like circles, rectangles and squares.

Here is a 17th century Turkish vambrace or bazu-band (from the Karlsruher Turkenbeute collection). Most contemporary Iranian and Indian vambraces would have had a similar construction but a different style of decoration. Vambraces of this type were used in the middle-east from the late 15th century to the early 19th century.


This is a 16th century Ottoman krug or korazin from the Royal armouries in Leeds. This type of armour was probably used from the early 16th to the late 17th century in Iran, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. In Iran and India the Krug was superceded by the chahar-ayna cuirass in the late 16th century.


This is another type of mail-and-plate armour, variants of this were used in the Mamluk Sultanate, Ottoman Empire, Iran, India and Russia from the late 14th to late 18th century AD. This particular example is Turkish and is in the Royal armouries in Leeds:


Finally if you haven't got these two books already then I would recommend them. They're a bit old fashioned and occasionally downright out-dated, but they're cheap (especially if you buy them second-hand from abebooks.com) and have lots of pictures, so they are a good starting point:
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublicat...486407268.html
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublicat...486418189.html

[rasdan]

Hi Ahriman,

I think the the wire diameter of 2.5mm (12ga if i'm right) is too big and ring diameter also is a bit large. What i see normally in a Moro armour they would use a 14ga wire with a diameter of 5/16" for the suit and 12ga wire with a diameter of perhaps 3/8" for rings connecting the plates. The plates are also a bit thick. I thought 2.5mm thick would be adequate. But, well, this is only my observations, i dont have the experience of making one myself.


Btw, i have a few questions. Do u cut your rings by yourself? What material is the rings? Can u please tell us, how do u make the plates curve? Do u use a stamping machine or a hammer?

Regards,
Rasdan

[Ahriman]

Thanks for the good pictures, especially the krug, and the comments!

I forgot to add a few infos about that cuirass: the photos are more than a year old, while the cuirass was an absolute side project in the last 2 years. I've drawn the patterns for the plates directly onto the steel free-handedly, and I, indeed, made the armpit too vulnerable. I'm currently planning the next version with more krug-ish lines, but with keeping the "musculata" feeling. Oh, and I didn't know anything about the krug back then... And it was my first-ever m&p stuff. Even then, I'd like to finish it with elbow lenght sleeves.

Tim: I know, you're quite right, but back then, I thought that I'd need such a big armpit for mobility. I was wrong. The mentioned sleeves'll help a bit, but won't solve the problem fully. The next one will be better for sure.

It seems to me that the eastern people tended to have quite thin arms - I haven't really seen any bazuband that could fit to my arm. This seems strange because they were fighting and shooting arrows most of their lifetime... Or am I wrong?

[Ahriman]

I use only hammers for platework. I hate machining tools excluding the angle-grinder, the drill, and that huge thing that can rotate metal (I don't know it's english name).
Yes, it's indeed VERY thick. From mild steel, 1.5-2 mm would've been enough, from tempered spring steel, 1.2 mm would've been overkill already. Wire thickness is due to the hungarian demands - be it cheap and durable. Cheapness rules out riveted mail, durability rules out anything under 12ga.. And I'm almost famous for the strenght of my stuff.
Rings are steel and, of course, cold drawn, which makes it better. I coiled and cut them with that huge thing etc, and my angle grinder.
Another pictures, not eastern, but it proves that I use hammers.... It's a half-done musculata with less than 5 hours of work in it, with planning-patterning.

[Aqtai]

That lorica musculata looks pretty good after just 5 hours work, is it bronze?

On the subject of mail, it's my understanding that mail was usually made from iron rather than steel, there were good sound reasons for this apparently. If I remember rightly if struck, a steel ring was more likely to break where as an iron ring would deform, but not break.

I would't worry too much about the armpits being exposed on the krug-style cuirass, AFAIK the krug, like the chahar aina, was meant to be worn over a mail shirt.

I still haven't found the bazubands I mentioned, but I'm sure I've seen one like yours somewhere. Here are a pair of Iranian bazubands circa 1700 from the Royal Armouries:


With regards to what you said about the size of bazubands, I encountered the same thing with a tulwar I recently bought, the hilt was too small for my hand. I can only surmise that the average Turk/Iranian/Indian circa 1400-1800 was smaller than most modern Europeans.

Solid plate bazubands were also used in India, like this example from "The Arts of War, Arms and Armour of the 7th to 19th centuries, The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art, VOL XXI" by David Alexander. These often look a bit bigger.

[Ahriman]

Sorry, the iron-steel thing is my fault. I've learned physics and chemistry, and I worked a year with a machinist. Everywhere I was told that there's no thing like iron wire, or iron plate, because 100% ferrum is absolutely useless... and every iron-based metal which has other components is steel. In this case, the rings are from "mild steel", which is called iron by MOST people. They're technically wrong, but there're only a few idiots like me and my teachers who know this - and I'm triing very hard to be clear, but it's quite difficult when the same thing has a million names.

Much more serious case is that here in Hungary I can't even describe a sword well, as even the semi-experienced folks know only that a "kard" is everything which is straight and longer than a feet, and a "szablya" is everything which is curved... Try telling them it's a yataghan, a shamshir, or a curved kindjal...

No, it's not bronze - it's way too expensive to use it for side projects. This musculata was amongst the first pieces for which I actually did patterns and calculations other than eye measure. I haven't worked on it like a month.

will post more tomorrow.

[Battara]

Rasdan is impressively correct about the Moro dimensions. They often used bronze or brass chain-maille, 4-in-1 pattern for conneting the plates. Your's also looks 4-in-1, and you might want to consider brass, which is cheaper and more easy to work. I will start working on restoring my Moro armor in a little bit, repairing the plates and mending the chain-maille (with the exception of the American bullet holes ). You may also want to check out the armor section of swordforum.com as another source, and do a search there on chain-maille. Like your work on the Greek(?) body plating.

[rasdan]

Hi all,

While we are on this topic, i am curious. How does the moro attach the hinges of their armour? Is there an extra middle plate inside the armour that holds that thing that holds the armour lock? The attched picture shows a picture of a bugis armour which is strikingly similar to the moro ones. It is donated by a man of bugis descendants in Muar, Johor in 1924 to a museum in KL.

[Alam Shah]

Hi Rasdan,

It is locked into position by 2 metal plates which secure the left and right plates together. One for the top and another for the bottom. See links for examples.
Simple locking mechanism.
http://www.eriksedge.com/PH116.jpg

Another variation used by Datuks.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom.../MoroArmor.jpg

[rasdan]

Hi Shah,

What i meant is, how the 'rod' for the lock is fixed. In this following picture, we can see that the plates are made of horn, and the 'rod' is brass. How does the brass 'rod' fixed onto the horn plate? I suspect the horn only has holes for the 'rod' and the 'rod' was made separately and welded onto a piece of centre brass plate inside the armour and then fixed with the lock. The extra inner middle plate also can protect the body if the thrust goes directly in the middle of the chest plates. (Just my opinion). We can see the missing 'rod' from the second picture below. Can anybody clear this up?

Thanks,
Rasdan

[Aqtai]

I knew I had seen a picture of vambraces similar to the ones you made somewhere. This pic is from G.C. Stones venerable and somewhat outdated "Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times". Unfortunately Stone doesn't mention when these vambraces were made and in what part of India where they used.


This picture is also from the same book, surprisingly it's the only picture I have that shows the back of a krug:

[Alam Shah]

Rasdan,

The rings may be a modification, for a quick easy release mechanism.

[rasdan]

Ic, thanks Shah

Hi Ahriman,

Love your work on the plates. Finishing the armour would give more or less same muscle built as the one on the plates.

[Ahriman]

Thanks! (((Then buy some )))
Nice pictures, thanks again! I know that most of you are familiar with these... but I couldn't find them earlier... And it's a good thing to have them in one place, isn't it? (((This means: post even more!!! )))
I was thinking. Would it be possible to make a modified krug? I mean, I like it, I have made one already, but I'd prefer a smaller disc, and a bit higher, so it could cover the solar plexus. Um, it'd look almost like a zertsalo, just with m&p construction. So, full circle: would it be "authentic"? (If it was hard to understand, I can post a drawing.)

Vambraces: nice, but I still lack the full metacarpal. Is it because it's my modern idiotism, or it was rare, or what..?

Arm sizes: it'd be OK if it would be to scale. I mean, hand smaller, arms smaller, ok, but the proportions are still not ok. My wrist circumference is 18cm, and my lower arm circumference at the thickest is more than 42cm. Now, I wasn't training for a long time, I'm not a regular archer, I prefer two-handed weapons, and still... I simply can't believe that a full-time warrior can have such a tiny arm. Even the most flaring vambrace on the pics have about 1/1.5=1,666 wrist/thick area ratio, while 42/18=2,333, and it's AFTER the non-training period.

One thing occured to me though: isn't it possible that these were the possessions of the upper classes, and were mostly decorative? I mean, if it has silver on it, repousse, etc, it's not likely that it's owner was a full-time fighter, who don't care much for politics. Or am I, again, and idiot?

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by Ahriman

...I was thinking. Would it be possible to make a modified krug? I mean, I like it, I have made one already, but I'd prefer a smaller disc, and a bit higher, so it could cover the solar plexus. Um, it'd look almost like a zertsalo, just with m&p construction. So, full circle: would it be "authentic"? (If it was hard to understand, I can post a drawing.)

Vambraces: nice, but I still lack the full metacarpal. Is it because it's my modern idiotism, or it was rare, or what..?

Arm sizes: it'd be OK if it would be to scale. I mean, hand smaller, arms smaller, ok, but the proportions are still not ok. My wrist circumference is 18cm, and my lower arm circumference at the thickest is more than 42cm. Now, I wasn't training for a long time, I'm not a regular archer, I prefer two-handed weapons, and still... I simply can't believe that a full-time warrior can have such a tiny arm. Even the most flaring vambrace on the pics have about 1/1.5=1,666 wrist/thick area ratio, while 42/18=2,333, and it's AFTER the non-training period.

One thing occured to me though: isn't it possible that these were the possessions of the upper classes, and were mostly decorative? I mean, if it has silver on it, repousse, etc, it's not likely that it's owner was a full-time fighter, who don't care much for politics. Or am I, again, and idiot?

Hi Ahriman,
I'm not sure what you mean about the "krug" disc being modified. The disc already covers the entire abdomen and part of the chest as well. The zertsalo is just the Russian version of the krug, in fact krug itself is a Russian word. This type of armour was used in Turkey, Iran and Russian the 16th and 17th centuries so there was probably a lot of variation already. In fact Islamic/Oriental armour was made by a single craftsman working with a group of apprentices not mass produced in a factory, so I doubt that any two krugs would be identical.

As for the bazubands being small, I don't understand it either, but I doubt all the examples we have are all purely decorative. Many of these must have been made for combat, yes many may have been made for high-ranking officers or for elite guard units, but even these chaps would get involved in combat if the battle went the wrong way. It's possible also we have completely misunderstood the way these things were worn.

I'm not sure what you mean by the metacarpal either. Turkish and Iranian bazubands often had mail "mittens" attached while Indian bazubands (known as dastanas) either had mail mittens or padded fabric mittens.

Anyway I'll throw in a few more of my photos:

First a pair of Indian dastanas from the Victoria and Albert Museum in London:


A partial 16th century Ottoman krug from the Royal Armouries museum:


An 18th century Iranian armour set. I can't remember if this this set is early or late 18th century. The difference is important. Armour made before 1750 is more like to be functional armour designed for combat and the mail links are rivetted, whereas armour made after about 1750 is usually ceremonial and mail components are invariably unriveted.


Lastly an 18th century Sindi armour from the Royal Armouries:

[Ahriman]

My fault again... I meant metacarpal plate. I know about the mittens, but that'd be far from enough... especially if there's the possibility of meeting a hammer, a club, an axe... Not to mention a two-hander sword.

With them being small, I meant that even MY arm has a wrist/thickest part circumference ratio of 18/42, which is quite far from these vambraces. They don't widen enough for a muscular arm, which would be normal for an archer-swordsman. The last one you posted is getting closer if I see it correctly, but MOST of these are... small, and it's strange to me. If you still can't understand my rambling, learn hungarian so I can explain it in my mother language...

About the zertsalo-krug thing, I thought the same, but thoughts like this often cause me trouble... For example I don't understand why would a Berserk*-ish armour impossible in the 16th century, Germany. Grotesque, fluted, working. Then...?
* I mean the manga, not the viking bastard.

[Ahriman]

Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me... I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago.
For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person...
Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction?

And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture.

Thanks!

[Ahriman]

Just now, in an email, I've received a link, where I've found this picture.

Now, I think that #5 and #11 is too familiar. It seems to me that they could be theoretically joined with the #3 down on this page, which Aqtai posted. I know that neither of the show signs of connection, but the familiar design is strange to me. COULD have been there a connection between India and Japan? More precisely, is it possible that the Japans had acces to Indian stuff? Because, if so, we'd have a clear link. (at least, I think) And it'd result in a plate mitten, with plate wirst lame, and mail connection between the wirst, metacarpal, and vambrace plates.
I do know it's a crazy theory, but what do you think?

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me... I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago.
For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person...
Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction?

And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture.

Thanks!

The photos were all taken by myself a few months ago at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, it is the closest Museum to where I live and as far as I know one of the last remaining big public collections of of Oriental armour in England that is still open. The V&A closed their main arms and armour collection and the only the few pieces remaining in the South Asia section can now be seen by the public. The Wallace Collection is also open, but exhibits mainly later Indian and Iranian armour, it has no Turkish stuff and doesn't allow photography. I'm afraid I wasn't particularly interested in the damaged krug at the time as there was an intact krug next to it. So that's the biggest photo i have of it.

I've placed a lot of my Royal Armoury photos on the User-submitted photos section of the myarmoury.com website.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/thum...lbum=50&page=1

[Ahriman]

Sorry, I meant that picture from the book... I can see the damaged one's repousse well enough.
That's sad... but less sad than our country... one of our museums has about 50 japanase weapons... displays 0... has more than 100 katars... displays 0... has late-period japanase full armours... display 0... I'm VERY mad at them.

[Aqtai]

OK I understand, I'm afraid I don't have a more detailed picture, it was scanned from G. C. Stones' "Glossary...", which is why the quality isn't great. All I can do is link you to a slightly bigger scan:
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/9...anstone0ep.jpg

About those Japanese laminated gauntlets, I have seen Turkish and Iranian armours with laminated vambraces that extended down to the knuckles. Unfortunately the only picture I have of one these, is a rather poor quality picture from Robinson's "Oriental Armour" of a 15th century Turkish armour, now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York.


It has to be said though these laminated vambraces look suspiciously like greaves. I saw this armour in the Met about four years ago, it has now been placed on an equestrian figure, and the vambraces are no longer there.

A reconstruction of this armour is also on the front cover of an Osprey Men-At-Arms book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/08...=1#reader-page

[Ahriman]

Damn, I was looking for this suit for ages!
Yes, I see that most of these pictures are from books...

I don't think that it'd be greave... where'd you put that "metacarpal"-like plate? It's shaped rather oddly for a sabaton... and it's too short. If the author'd've mentioned something about this...
BTW, I found an interesting vambrace at rubens.anu.edu.au. It has that widening I missed before, and is quite like the one on the met suit, only that it's shorter. But if we take into consideration that it's made from 3 plates which couldn't compress, while the met one in made from stripes... Hm. And it's too high for a greave, and if I'm correct, the turkish armour fashion used m&p cuisses with mail demi-greaves, which'd cover about the third or half of the greave. So such a high greave would be a waste of metal and would needlessly increase the weight.
There's a quite simple way to get proof... I'm in need for a full eastern harness... so I think, as I have the picture of it now, I'll build THIS for myself at last. If the vambrace works, good, if not... then we're looking for very-very long legs...

[Ahriman]

Damn, I forgot. This is the mentioned vambrace.

[Aqtai]

If you are talking about the 5th picture along, the one that looks like this:


I'm sorry to say it is a greave. Oriental greaves strap to the outside of the leg.

If you have a look at the picture of the mannequin wearing the full armour with the krug cuirass, you can just make them out.

Here is photo I took of one at the Royal Armouries museum.


Here is a complete greave and cuisse assembly. It's from that Osprey book on Ottoman Armies.


Here's a 15th century Turkish cuisse as well.


BTW, that's a nice website you found there. There is a partial embossed krug on the first page.

[Ahriman]

Lol, I thought I should beleive the museum... Makes sense as a greave, if I look it that way. But then how's that that even the turkish museum says it's a vambrace???