Byzantium spears _ looking for information

bakradze · 28th October 2010, 12:53 AM

I hope it is a right place for this thread...

I’m looking for photos of artifacts, frescoes, books and articles on-line and so on... especially, for spear heads with circles..

I will be grateful for any information..

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2010, 01:30 AM

Interesting query Bakradze, it would be hard to know where to begin. So you would like to learn the history of Byzantium, the city, but would like to know what art and iconography, archaeological history, references and what kind of spears were used ?

My questions to you to more effectly answer would be; are you a collector, and if so what do you collect; are you doing a study for a project; do you have a specific interest in period and what kind of spearhead with what kind of circles?

Are you interested in Byzantium from its founding by the Greeks in the 7th century BC; or from the period after its conquest by Romans and its later incarnation as Constantinople, as it became the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, or the later conquest by the Ottomans?

Perhaps it would be easier to help you if we knew what you have already found and questions on specific aspects of the Byzantine Empire over all these centuries.

If it is simply a type of spearhead you either have or are curious about, please give us an illustration or more particulars to know what you are looking for. We very much love history and study it through the weapons, with the topics and discussions centered on specifics so we can focus on information rather than random and broad areas.

Thank you for joining us, and looking forward to hearing more on what you are studying.

All the best,
Jim

bakradze · 28th October 2010, 12:23 PM

Thank you for answer Mr. McDougall

No, I’m not a collector; I am working in ethnic and medieval Georgian arms and armor. The spear I’m talking about is like that one the picture _ Georgian Icon IX c. As you can see, Georgian iconography at this period (and, as I suppose, Georgian arms in period of VIII-XII cc.) have rather big Byzantium’s influence. For example well-known Triptych_Harbaville_(Louvre). That’s why I’m looking for such spears (with circles on head) in Byzantium. Especially spears from Harbaville are a bit different, but there are enough Byzantium Icons with the same type spears..

Georgia, XI c.

Byzantium, Triptych_Harbaville, XI c.

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2010, 07:59 PM

Hi Bakradze, and thank you for the more detailed explanation....please call me Jim OK, we're very informal here!!

Absolutely fascinating topic, the arms of Georgia, and the importance of Georgia's part during the crusades is often not nearly included enough in histories of the subject. I know I'll need to work a bit on getting up to speed on this, but meanwhile, references that come to mind are:

"Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" David Nicolle, this is a two volume set, with amazingly comprehensive plates of drawings of arms and armour, very informative.

"Byzantine Infantryman: Eastern Roman Empire 900-1204" , Timothy Dawson, this is one of the Osprey monographs.

"Warrior Saints in Byzantine Art and Tradition", 2003, Christopher Walter.

Indeed the Georgian iconography does reflect the themes and motif of Greek Orthodox Christianity in its art, and I recall the profound presence of the medieval religious symbolism of the crusaders being seen in the arms and armour of the Khevsurs.

Knowing now what you are referring to with the spears I think we can look further into what type of spears were used by the Byzantine forces in these times and what the significance was of a circular motif in the head of an apparantly signicant number of these. Having established the important Harbaville Triptych (middle 10th c.) with examples, we can look more into the representation of the figures and the weapon forms in place.

Excellent topic!! and thank you so much for joining us as we move ahead on searching for examples.

All the best,
Jim

bakradze · 30th October 2010, 11:12 AM

Hello Jim!
Thank, you for books you advised me. I have PDF version of D. Nicole book _ really very interesting work.. Probably anyone have the other two book’s scans? would be grateful for them.

"Byzantine Infantryman: Eastern Roman Empire 900-1204" , Timothy Dawson, this is one of the Osprey monographs.

"Warrior Saints in Byzantine Art and Tradition", 2003, Christopher Walter.

What about Khevsurs, I remember, it was popular theory that they come from Crusaders who left in Georgia after loosing Jerusalem, and build village Shatili, (fr. Shatilion), but it is only European legend, of course...)) we know, that some Khevsurs really had crusaders swords, but they might come from Venetian’s and Genoa’s factories, and not Crusaders... )) what about cross ornament in Khevsurian ethnik arms decoration, cross in Georgia is much older, than crusadors )).

28th October 2010, 12:53 AM	#1
bakradze Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6	Byzantium spears _ looking for information I hope it is a right place for this thread... I’m looking for photos of artifacts, frescoes, books and articles on-line and so on... especially, for spear heads with circles.. I will be grateful for any information..

28th October 2010, 01:30 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Interesting query Bakradze, it would be hard to know where to begin. So you would like to learn the history of Byzantium, the city, but would like to know what art and iconography, archaeological history, references and what kind of spears were used ? My questions to you to more effectly answer would be; are you a collector, and if so what do you collect; are you doing a study for a project; do you have a specific interest in period and what kind of spearhead with what kind of circles? Are you interested in Byzantium from its founding by the Greeks in the 7th century BC; or from the period after its conquest by Romans and its later incarnation as Constantinople, as it became the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, or the later conquest by the Ottomans? Perhaps it would be easier to help you if we knew what you have already found and questions on specific aspects of the Byzantine Empire over all these centuries. If it is simply a type of spearhead you either have or are curious about, please give us an illustration or more particulars to know what you are looking for. We very much love history and study it through the weapons, with the topics and discussions centered on specifics so we can focus on information rather than random and broad areas. Thank you for joining us, and looking forward to hearing more on what you are studying. All the best, Jim

28th October 2010, 12:23 PM	#3
bakradze Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6	Thank you for answer Mr. McDougall No, I’m not a collector; I am working in ethnic and medieval Georgian arms and armor. The spear I’m talking about is like that one the picture _ Georgian Icon IX c. As you can see, Georgian iconography at this period (and, as I suppose, Georgian arms in period of VIII-XII cc.) have rather big Byzantium’s influence. For example well-known Triptych_Harbaville_(Louvre). That’s why I’m looking for such spears (with circles on head) in Byzantium. Especially spears from Harbaville are a bit different, but there are enough Byzantium Icons with the same type spears.. Georgia, XI c. Byzantium, Triptych_Harbaville, XI c.

28th October 2010, 07:59 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Bakradze, and thank you for the more detailed explanation....please call me Jim OK, we're very informal here!! Absolutely fascinating topic, the arms of Georgia, and the importance of Georgia's part during the crusades is often not nearly included enough in histories of the subject. I know I'll need to work a bit on getting up to speed on this, but meanwhile, references that come to mind are: "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" David Nicolle, this is a two volume set, with amazingly comprehensive plates of drawings of arms and armour, very informative. "Byzantine Infantryman: Eastern Roman Empire 900-1204" , Timothy Dawson, this is one of the Osprey monographs. "Warrior Saints in Byzantine Art and Tradition", 2003, Christopher Walter. Indeed the Georgian iconography does reflect the themes and motif of Greek Orthodox Christianity in its art, and I recall the profound presence of the medieval religious symbolism of the crusaders being seen in the arms and armour of the Khevsurs. Knowing now what you are referring to with the spears I think we can look further into what type of spears were used by the Byzantine forces in these times and what the significance was of a circular motif in the head of an apparantly signicant number of these. Having established the important Harbaville Triptych (middle 10th c.) with examples, we can look more into the representation of the figures and the weapon forms in place. Excellent topic!! and thank you so much for joining us as we move ahead on searching for examples. All the best, Jim

30th October 2010, 11:12 AM	#5
bakradze Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6	Hello Jim! Thank, you for books you advised me. I have PDF version of D. Nicole book _ really very interesting work.. Probably anyone have the other two book’s scans? would be grateful for them. "Byzantine Infantryman: Eastern Roman Empire 900-1204" , Timothy Dawson, this is one of the Osprey monographs. "Warrior Saints in Byzantine Art and Tradition", 2003, Christopher Walter. What about Khevsurs, I remember, it was popular theory that they come from Crusaders who left in Georgia after loosing Jerusalem, and build village Shatili, (fr. Shatilion), but it is only European legend, of course...)) we know, that some Khevsurs really had crusaders swords, but they might come from Venetian’s and Genoa’s factories, and not Crusaders... )) what about cross ornament in Khevsurian ethnik arms decoration, cross in Georgia is much older, than crusadors )).