![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]()
This is an interesting old sword. It is a high end, pre-1800 Moro blade with an old Waray scabbard and hilt. The scabbard is in a style seen on old garab, including the fluted carving and the small round insert near the toe on both sides. The mouth has been widened to accept the flared gangya area of the blade. The hilt is also of a style seen on some old garab.
The blade was a very good one, although much pitted over time. The central panel does not appear to be twist core, however the sinuous design with many small "stars" inset at regular intervals down the blade suggests that the central panel is depicting a centipede. IIRC, the centipede was an important creature in Maguindanao mythology. The carved area at the base of the blade follows Indonesian keris from the late-Majapahit period, and is similar to that found on a 16th C Bugis keris that was discussed here. Better pictures will come after it arrives. . Last edited by Ian; 16th June 2024 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Added URL |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,096
|
![]()
Very nice old kris that seems to have been adopted for Visayan use.
I don't see any 16th century Bugis keris discussed in the link you provided. Which of the keris in that thread are you referring to? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 429
|
![]()
Congratulations. That is a very nice keris with a story to tell!!! I would love to have an example like that in my collection one day.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,726
|
![]() Quote:
Ian mean the one in post #8. ![]() Last edited by Sajen; 16th June 2024 at 10:16 PM. Reason: giving wrong post, sorry |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 407
|
![]()
I've always enjoyed lurking on kris posts, but I have a technical question. I like the design and integration of the gangya.(cross guard)? and the blade. Likely some cultural reason. But mechanically why is the gangya made separate from the blade and apparently fastened to the blade by those "clips"? Is this a relatively weak connection? The gangya is thicker and wider of the blade, but would seem no great technical chore to forge as a single piece.
Best, Ed |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 321
|
![]()
Are the star patterns on the blade unusual? They remind me of the patterns on this Visayan knife scabbard.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Very nice garab, Jeff, congrats!
The motif on Moro blades (like Ian's here) is usually a bit asymmetrical. Thus, I believe they might be different. Regards, Kai |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ed,
Quote:
The clips/clamps are mainly to securing the gangya/katik to the blade (as well as helping to attach the hilt to the blade). The latter is a functional aspect; the former has more like a metaphysical reason. Regards, Kai |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ian,
Quote:
It is obviously old. However, what features do you base the pre-1800 dating on? Quote:
I'd have assumed that the scabbard got made for this blade? (There seem to be losses at the opening.) Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]()
An important question for me is how did a nobility Moro kris end up in Waray dress? I have chatted with another Forum member about this sword and how it might have ended up in the hands of a resident of the eastern Visayas.
There are several ways in which Moro swords might be found outside the original culture.
The quality and mysticism of the sword requires that it was owned by royalty or perhaps a panglima. This, in turn, suggests a significant battle between Moros and Visayans. Several such battles occurred in the Visayas between the Moros and Spanish forces during what has been termed the third phase of the Spanish-Moro War (see here). Between 1599 and 1634 several large scale punitive raids were conducted by the Moros against the Spanish-held areas in the Visayas:
I believe that this 35-year period of Moro incursions against the Spanish is the most likely time for this sword to have been collected by a Waray during conflict with Moro raiders. We have no record of the Waray coming into conflict with Moros elsewhere. Collection of the sword in the early 1600s would likely mean it was made towards the end of the 1500s or early 1600s. So late-16th to early-17th C would be my estimate for age. If this estimate is correct, then the composition of the Moro kris had reached its standard form by this time and for about 250 years going forward. Last edited by Ian; 18th June 2024 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Typos |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 407
|
![]()
Hello Kai,
Thanks for the gangay-blade explanation. "Tradition" does cover a lot of bases and is accepted by cultures as "Just the way it is" to be a proper kris". Also, I guess that the kris is more for Cultural Presentation than for mechanical strength for fighting. Best regards, Ed |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | ||||
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Seafaring groups from the Sulu Archipelago and Mindanao (notably the Sama and Ilanun) established contact with Borneo and the Celebes, and even parts of Java, in the time of the Majapahit Empire. The use of the term "Rajah" for early leaders in the southern Philippines would argue that lingering Majapahit influence was quite strong. There was ample time for the Majapahit-style "modern" keris to have been brought to Sulu and Mindanao by pre-Islamic Philippine tribal groups. Subsequent development of the Javanese keris into the Philippines kris, and its use by those who would later convert to Islam, could have occurred over a 200-year period, or even longer, well preceding the arrival of Spaniards. Thus, to find a well developed Moro kris form attributable to the late-16th or early-17th C may be expected. I believe that is what we see in this sword. As a corollary, I would not be surprised if we found prototypes of the Moro kris dating from the 14th C or 15th C, or even earlier. In thinking about the early development of the kris in the southern Philippines, I believe that we may underestimate just how old the kris and other weaponry may be. This reflects, in part, the general lack of extant written history for the era prior to the Spanish arrival in the mid-16th C, and the paucity of good archeological research conducted throughout the Philippines. Regards, Ian |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
The Moro kris was very much a fighting weapon, although it was often imbued with mystical and other symbolic meaning (consistent mainly with pre-Islamic beliefs). In the second half of the 19th C, the kris was "upgraded" to have a heavier, wider, and perhaps slightly longer blade to better combat the Spanish blades being used at that time. Combat kris also became mostly straight-bladed swords in this period. Regards, Ian |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,096
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
You may be correct. I am no keris expert. I was guided by Albert's description, which I posted with the pictures of that keris. Albert noted that it was the oldest item from the royal house that acquired it. The Dutch ancestor who collected the keris was the head of the VOC at the time, as noted in the thread I referenced. Whether or not it was a Bugis or Java keris, it reflected the style of keris dating from the late Majapahit period. As noted in my reply to Kai above, contact of seafaring Sulu and Mindanao groups with various parts of the Majapahit Empire likely occurred well before the 16th C, so the rather late Bugis (?) example may be moot. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,096
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 407
|
![]()
Thanks Ian!! The more I visit the Forum the more I learn about ethnographic weapons.
Best, Ed |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ed,
Quote:
Quote:
The Indo-Malay keris was readily utilized in (very) close quarter fighting, too. Obviously, it's a specialized dagger and not designed to excel at chopping/cutting/etc. Regards, Kai |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ian,
Quote:
There is no doubt that Mojopahit cultural influences carried over into subsequent ruling houses on Java (and elsewhere). However, there are no extant "modern" keris blades (as the one early "collected" by the VOC) whose origin can be safely established to predate Mataram. Aside from the keris buda (a type which probably was already around in even earlier times), there is no specific style of keris that is surely known from the period when Mojo culture widely influenced much of maritime SE Asia. Regards, Kai |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | ||
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 | |||||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ian,
Quote:
I believe we already established here quite some time ago that Cato's dating for archaic Moro kris needs to be reconsidered and probably revised. Quote:
Quote:
It's a really nice, old status blade. IMHO not an archaic Moro kris though. Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ian,
Interesting thoughts: Quote:
Regards, Kai |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,252
|
![]()
Hello Ian,
Quote:
During this period, the keris seems to have been limited to very select members of society (i.e. the ruling class). Regards, Kai |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
What I'm trying to do is put out reasoned ideas (hypotheses) that others can support or refute with new evidence. My main message with this sword is that the elements of what Cato calls "archaic kris" might be traced back to early in the 17th C, and possibly before. That's about 200 years earlier than Cato's "pre-1800" statement might suggest. I think that is an important point to pursue when thinking about the development of the Moro kris. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,159
|
![]() Quote:
As to Cato's description, he did research older kris, visiting museums in various countries, talking to Moro informants, etc. While there are areas where he may be a bit off the mark, I don't think he was wildly off with his view of archaic kris. The man put in some serious hours getting his book together, probably more than you or I have in actual research of items in hand and in collections. I understand your skepticism. However, the concerns you raise are not well validated and carry assumptions also. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I see a lot of cautious statements about the age of Moro weapons, lumping many into late-19th C or early-20th C pieces, when they may well be considerably older. Returning to the sword at the top of this thread. There are several questions to answer if an alternative time frame is proposed. Most importantly is how and when did this old kris get re-dressed in an old-style Waray scabbard and hilt? I have pointed to the fact that such an action performed on a nobility kris would be seen as a hostile act by Moros. Why was this done? What was the historical relationship between Waray and Moro at that time? IMHO these questions are no less important in answering how old this kris may be than the finer details of the features of the kris itself. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 638
|
![]() Quote:
Although in summary, not all Moro krises were meant to be fighting blades. While all Moro krises (except for the tourist ones) were functional and sharp and capable of killing, not all of them were built with battlefield purpose in mind. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 638
|
![]()
Regarding archaic kris, I understand that there may be different views on what would qualify as "archaic" with regard to timeline, blade build, etc; however I believe that a round tang would automatically qualify a Moro kris as archaic.
That being said- it's not a foolproof indicator, as I've seen krises which had their tang replaced at a later era. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,234
|
![]()
Just a couple of facts to regain some attachment to reality:
I have looked into Spanish museums for some time now. Until now I haven't found any Kris from Phillipines in their collections that would predate 1800. There, as Alan has pointed out many times, is a Kris, which probably everybody nowadays would call an "archaic" Moro Kris in its pure form. It comes from Brunei and was made in 1842. ------------------- We have two tendencies. The first one I would call academic, it works with available dates, and treats these dates as facts. Everything else ranges between hypothesis and speculation. The second is amateurs approach and is based on speculations going beyond the available dates. The possible truth often enough is situated somewhere between these viewpoints in my opinion. ---------------------- What I personally see in the Kris from this thread is an old blade with very possibly reworked fretwork (Greneng in Javanese Terminology), conservatively datable from first half of 19th cent., in a dress from the turn of 19th/20th centuries. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|