Interesting blade industry

Jens Nordlunde · 9th April 2006, 03:24 PM

Have a look here http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=65337 Wazirabad is placed 100 km north of Lahore in Punjab, Pakistan.

Emanuel · 9th April 2006, 05:34 PM

Very interesting. I'm wondering what the results would be if a government body or friendly organization were to invest in the area to promote traditionally forged blades. The whole thing could be organized in a cultural context, producing good swords, becoming a subject of national/regional pride that would further promote tourism. How much more intersting it would be to take a tour of the countryside and watch smiths do traditional work, than going to the local bazaar/stand and buying a cheap steel trinket that says absolutely nothing about the country one visits.
Good quality niche markets instead of cheap mass-production...
Regards,
Manolo

ariel · 9th April 2006, 06:43 PM

I am always on the pessimistic side. Newly made swords are trinkets devoid of any practical value (well, except for the few of us who like to pretend being real warriors and practice slashing styrofoam things and milk plastic jug).
Unlike carpets, jewelry, clothes, vases etc, swords have intrinsic purpose: war. And their heyday is long gone. A carpet may have no history behind it but still be beautiful and can be a centerpiece of a living room. The traditional materials are usually high quality and are pleasing to touch. Why invest all the effort in making an authentic blade, Damascus to a core, if it will never be used? For the mass market, stainless steel , chemically-induced pseudo-hamon and dragon head with red glassy eyes for a pommel will suffice. Who needs fully authentic horse whips anymore? Or meticulously crafted, genuinely usable chastity belts?
Real sword collectors look for nothing but the real thing: with history behind it and the with a hopeful suspicion that there might be some drops of dried human blood somewhere under the crossguard.
If I were an Indian cultural poobah, I would not invest a penny into converting the mass production junk sword mill into a cultural heritage center. Carpet-weaving or jewelry craft, yes. But leave the charm of anachronistic antiques alone.

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2006, 07:04 PM

Not so keen on the blood.

ariel · 9th April 2006, 07:31 PM

I have a question; which one of us would save money to buy a modern-made, contemporary wootz, fully authentic, museum quality replica of a Sossun Patta for about the same price as the real one?
On so many occasions we have engaged here in elaborate arguments whether some sword on e-bay is real or renovated and why we would not touch a particular one because of a sneaking suspicion of it's less than full authenticity. If that's the way we feel, why encourage manufacture of even more of those? Because they will be cheaper? The master will still have to spend a lot of time and effort crafting a sword that is authentic in every detail and adheres to the strictest traditional ways. This will cost money. Perhaps, somewhat less, but why buy a copy when the original costs not much more?
How many collect modern-made Japanese swords ( and here is an area where craftsmanship is at its highest)?

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2006, 07:56 PM

I just do not know, there's naught as queer as folk, as they say up north.

Emanuel · 10th April 2006, 03:54 AM

Hello Ariel and Tim,
It is the same question with buying expensive art as with buying weapons no? Keeping the craft/culture/way-of-life alive.

Please forgive this impetuous youth, but this topic gets him passionate:

Emanuel · 10th April 2006, 04:10 AM

Does one buy these weapons purely for their craftsmanship or for their historical, esoteric value? I like to buy and collect ethnographic swords and daggers because they have had a full life as a weapon and as such have affected the course of history. They mean something to me. At the same time I can appreciate a new finely made wootz sword or a perfect japanese blade.
Same with keris. I love keris intended as keris with all their cultural significances, but I am also immensely attracted to the new beautifully crafted examples with gorgeous pamor, purely for their craftmanship value. In the end -money no object- I would pay for both meaning and beauty, with preference to the former.
A long time ago I said that new swords will never be antiques as they were made with no practical value. But if I go somewhere in the world and an old man with gnarled hands crafts me a weapon putting all his cultural baggage into it, it will mean something to me. He will have crafted a weapon in every sense of the word as his ancestors did. I will have gained some knowledge about his culture that I could not get otherwise. I think this is the only purpose left for such objects. They are obsolete in every way except culturally/historically...except in some places...
I recently saw a news report on a dam in some part of Africa, and a Touareg guide was being interviewed. He still proudly wore his beautiful takouba and I doubt it was for the cameras. People still use these weapons these days.

Perhaps somewhere in Wazirabad an old man looked at the cheap trinkets from the factory and thought "My ancestors and I used to make something infinitely better than this high-tech crap" This is worth preserving I think.

9th April 2006, 03:24 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting blade industry Have a look here http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=65337 Wazirabad is placed 100 km north of Lahore in Punjab, Pakistan.

9th April 2006, 07:31 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a question; which one of us would save money to buy a modern-made, contemporary wootz, fully authentic, museum quality replica of a Sossun Patta for about the same price as the real one? On so many occasions we have engaged here in elaborate arguments whether some sword on e-bay is real or renovated and why we would not touch a particular one because of a sneaking suspicion of it's less than full authenticity. If that's the way we feel, why encourage manufacture of even more of those? Because they will be cheaper? The master will still have to spend a lot of time and effort crafting a sword that is authentic in every detail and adheres to the strictest traditional ways. This will cost money. Perhaps, somewhat less, but why buy a copy when the original costs not much more? How many collect modern-made Japanese swords ( and here is an area where craftsmanship is at its highest)? Last edited by ariel; 9th April 2006 at 07:48 PM.

10th April 2006, 04:10 AM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	A niche market for those who care Does one buy these weapons purely for their craftsmanship or for their historical, esoteric value? I like to buy and collect ethnographic swords and daggers because they have had a full life as a weapon and as such have affected the course of history. They mean something to me. At the same time I can appreciate a new finely made wootz sword or a perfect japanese blade. Same with keris. I love keris intended as keris with all their cultural significances, but I am also immensely attracted to the new beautifully crafted examples with gorgeous pamor, purely for their craftmanship value. In the end -money no object- I would pay for both meaning and beauty, with preference to the former. A long time ago I said that new swords will never be antiques as they were made with no practical value. But if I go somewhere in the world and an old man with gnarled hands crafts me a weapon putting all his cultural baggage into it, it will mean something to me. He will have crafted a weapon in every sense of the word as his ancestors did. I will have gained some knowledge about his culture that I could not get otherwise. I think this is the only purpose left for such objects. They are obsolete in every way except culturally/historically...except in some places... I recently saw a news report on a dam in some part of Africa, and a Touareg guide was being interviewed. He still proudly wore his beautiful takouba and I doubt it was for the cameras. People still use these weapons these days. Perhaps somewhere in Wazirabad an old man looked at the cheap trinkets from the factory and thought "My ancestors and I used to make something infinitely better than this high-tech crap" This is worth preserving I think.

9th April 2006, 05:34 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Very interesting. I'm wondering what the results would be if a government body or friendly organization were to invest in the area to promote traditionally forged blades. The whole thing could be organized in a cultural context, producing good swords, becoming a subject of national/regional pride that would further promote tourism. How much more intersting it would be to take a tour of the countryside and watch smiths do traditional work, than going to the local bazaar/stand and buying a cheap steel trinket that says absolutely nothing about the country one visits. Good quality niche markets instead of cheap mass-production... Regards, Manolo

9th April 2006, 06:43 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am always on the pessimistic side. Newly made swords are trinkets devoid of any practical value (well, except for the few of us who like to pretend being real warriors and practice slashing styrofoam things and milk plastic jug). Unlike carpets, jewelry, clothes, vases etc, swords have intrinsic purpose: war. And their heyday is long gone. A carpet may have no history behind it but still be beautiful and can be a centerpiece of a living room. The traditional materials are usually high quality and are pleasing to touch. Why invest all the effort in making an authentic blade, Damascus to a core, if it will never be used? For the mass market, stainless steel , chemically-induced pseudo-hamon and dragon head with red glassy eyes for a pommel will suffice. Who needs fully authentic horse whips anymore? Or meticulously crafted, genuinely usable chastity belts? Real sword collectors look for nothing but the real thing: with history behind it and the with a hopeful suspicion that there might be some drops of dried human blood somewhere under the crossguard. If I were an Indian cultural poobah, I would not invest a penny into converting the mass production junk sword mill into a cultural heritage center. Carpet-weaving or jewelry craft, yes. But leave the charm of anachronistic antiques alone.

9th April 2006, 07:04 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Not so keen on the blood.

9th April 2006, 07:56 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I just do not know, there's naught as queer as folk, as they say up north.

10th April 2006, 03:54 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Ariel and Tim, It is the same question with buying expensive art as with buying weapons no? Keeping the craft/culture/way-of-life alive. Please forgive this impetuous youth, but this topic gets him passionate: