Rapier or Riding Sword?

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I was looking at an early riding sword in my collection the other day, which caused me to re-examine this sword. Most of my early swords are displayed rather high up on the wall so I tend to neglect them for a while.

This sword dates around Circa 1590-1610 (17th Century)
Nationality: I think it's German?
Over Length: 43 1/8” 109.6 cm
Blade length: 34 ½” 87.6 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.6 cm
Hilt widest point: 6 ¾” 17 cm
Inside grip length: 3 3/8” 8.4 cm
Marks, etc: Unusual Queen’s heads and “.:IANANNI:

Description
Rapier or Riding Sword, German? 17th Century Thirty Years War Period, broad double edged blade 34 ½ inches long, deeply struck on both sides with three Queen’s heads and “.:IANANNI:.” In the short fullers. Two shell guards flattened pas d’ane rings, bars quillon and Knucklebow, Swollen pommel, woven steel wire bound grip.

General Remarks
I have not been able to find another example of a sword with these very distinct Queens Heads in any of my research. I have a number of books on sword marks but these stamps are so distinctive. They might be clean shaven kings, but they look pretty effeminate to me.

This sword was purchased from Wallis and Wallis early in our collecting and listed as a rapier. Recently when I compared it to the riding sword I own given its blade width I now consider it may also more accurately fit the riding sword description.

References:
BLAIR, C. European & American Arms. Plate 123-126
OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. Pp 160 “Shell Guards”, & 163. Plate 12©.
WAGNER, EVARD, Cut and Thrust Weapons Pp 183, plate 3.
WILKINSON, F. Edged Weapons. Pp 42-43 &47.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Regarding these markings, the three regal heads, I do not think these are 'queens' heads, and while the name in the blade fuller is obviously Italian, it seems quite likely these stamped heads are as well. In Boccia & Coelho there are some blades which have triplicate groupings in this type configuration.
While the hilt itself seems more northern European, I think this may well be an Italian blade, and I think the period early 17th c. proper.

The use of female heads in sword blade markings as far as makers marks or stamps seems extremely rare, actually R.D.C. Evans notes,
" ...#24- MAIDENS HEAD- the only female head noted amongst recorded marks, this blade makers mark occurs on one Hampton Court bayonet".
This mark to Philip Penn 1668.

JAAS, Vol. XVII, No.6 , Sept. 2003,
"Cutlers Marks on English Plug Bayonets: A Survey" , RD.C. Evans, p.306

While obviously in England, a bit later and regarding bayonets, the example is just to illustrate that female heads in such stamps are unlikely.

The unbearded character with it seems curly hair somewhat recalls certain types of blackamoor head in many varying marks. While these are typically turbaned there do seem to be cases where crowned, but have yet to locate them.

While realizing that the observation terming these heads as 'queens heads' is simply descriptive, I just wanted to add more on their character .

Nice sword!!! of course!! and always great to see this wonderful thread continued Thank you Cathey

[iskender]

possible a blade from solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger, he like his father (ore me) where analphabets ,i have a rapier from his father,there is one in the met. the spelling of johannes,iohannis, etc.is allways slighly different. greetings good luck further investigatins! iskender

[ulfberth]

Hello Cathy,

the sword you presented has an Italian design or style to it, but it could also be south German or Styrian.
In Germany they call this type a riding sword or in everyday language even schwert rapier which means sword rapier, here are some other examples of riding swords or sword rapiers.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I think Jim might be on the right track suggesting the marks on the blade are blackamoor heads; I had only discounted this due to the crowns. If anyone has an example of a crowned blackamoor I would be very grateful. I also agree that this sword should be categorised as a riding sword and does have a Italian look about it. Also I think Iskender is probably right and that blade is solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger. I just wish I could find evidence that links these strange crowned heads with him of someone else definitively.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I think Jim might be on the right track suggesting the marks on the blade are blackamoor heads; I had only discounted this due to the crowns. If anyone has an example of a crowned blackamoor I would be very grateful. I also agree that this sword should be categorised as a riding sword and does have a Italian look about it. Also I think Iskender is probably right and that blade is solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger. I just wish I could find evidence that links these strange crowned heads with him of someone else definitively.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Thank you Cathey,
In continuing to search for plausibility in my blackamoor head suggestion, I found one example in heraldry with a crown, though as I noted the uncrowned blackamoor head is significantly well known. I found the attached example in the arms for the See of Freising, in Southern Germany.
This would seem to align with the observation made by Ulfberth in the likelihood of South Germany with this style sword.

The triple configuration as I previously noted is seen in a number of Italian markings in grouping, and can be seen in the triple arcs at the end of the fuller near the cross as well.

I would point out here that the Wundes kings head markings are of course quite different. In Gyngell p.,46) there is an uncrowned unbearded figure of this blackamoor type shown to Matanni of Solingen.
In Boeheim (p.663) there is a crowned kings head to Antanni Matanni c.1550 listed in Italy.

In Gyngell (p.40) there is one of these uncrowned heads as well as the crowned kings head both to Martino Antonio of Solingen.

it would seem these blackamoor heads were somewhat comingled between crowned kings heads and uncrowned blackamoor type heads as were apparently Italian smiths between these centers.

I would be inclined to think of this sword, clearly early to mid 17th c. to bear markings used by Italian makers in this variation and configuration probably in S. Germany or Styria as suggested. and reflecting the influence of the Solingen markings combined with more standard kings heads.

[Jim McDougall]

More research on the blackamoor symbolism in European heraldry and religious context reveals much more complexity. Apparantly much of this has to do with St.Maurice the soldier saint and Black patron saint of the Holy Roman Empire as well as Ethiopian Prester John.

In addition to the See of Freising previously mentioned from Southern Germany, is the seal of the Palitinate city of Lauingen in Bavaria which is a golden crowned blackamoor head . In describing symbolism of this kind with Christian associations, it is noted that a symbol or device presented in three's alludes to the three nails of the Crucifixion.

These additional findings seem to plausibly add support to the southern German probability of this early 17th century arming sword with this symbolism with crowned blackamoor heads of regional significance.

[iskender]

why does nobody call this a "Haudegen" ? i have never seen these specifically kingsheadstamps till now, but many different kingheadstamps of different wundesgenerations (fat ,long, ugly, nice,)exist. Stamps wear out ,get lost ,get stolen,also these people had big fights about "copywright-problems" .but thanks to the internet and the possibility of afficinados excanging there knowledge all around the world sooner or later you will now it exact and correct. iskender switzerland

[cornelistromp]

pommel is norman type 29 (1550-1640) and the hilt a variation of type 52 (1550-1645).
Iahanni's name appears on several blades of the dussage type , made in styermark in the last quarter of the 16th century.

Actually this early rapier, or cavalry sword as you wish, has much in common with the dusagge; the thick bars, the shell-shaped guardplate and a pommel type that appears on later dussages around 1590-1600.

the crowned Moor mark is known to me, I just need to find where I've seen this.

so a Styrian rapier from the last quarter of the 16thC.

best,
Jasper

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Thank you for the information posted, I think we are beginning to solve the puzzle. Thanks to Jim for finding the Arms of the See of Freising, I have done some further research into the use of the crowned blackamoor heads in heraldry. It appears that the crowned moor was used in Germany, where as in Spain and Italy the Moor wears a scarf.

I feel very comfortable agreeing with the direction of the discussion to date which is that the sword is from the Southern German region of Europe. This being the case and the use of the Crowned moor in heraldry in this area brings me to believe that the heads on the blade may have nothing to do with a maker, and may have been commissioned decoration that meant something to the owner of the sword.

Jasper, Thank you for the detailed analysis of component parts of my sword, it appears it might be a little earlier than my original guess at a date of C1630. The sword you have pictured purchased at auction for £55, what a fabulous buy. The shell guard has much in common with my rapier. Can I trouble you to post pictures of the entire sword, we simply do not see these surface in Australia.

Iskender, what is a Haudegen, I have never come across this term before? I googed it and came up with a Rock Band I suspect this is not what you mean.



Cheers Cathey and Rex

[iskender]

haudegen; europäischer degen des 16/17 jahrhundert für Hieb und Stich. iskender

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Cathey!
I think Ufberth had this nailed from the start, and our subsequent research has primarily found support for that assertion by following this fascinating Blackamoor marking lead.

Iskender, I think the reason nobody has referred to this sword as a 'haudegen' is simply because this is a term in German for these kinds of swords. It is interesting to know however, as like Cathey, I had never heard the term before as I seldom am involved in German language context.

I had not known what Jasper had meant by Styermark either, and found that is the German term for Styria, while Styria is the Latin term for this Austrian region.

This thread has proven a very fascinating exercise in the study of both kings heads and the blackamoor heads.
I have found that Johannes Wundes did use kings heads, and in many cases these bearded kings were used on his blades in this 'triumvirate' style configuration. Other examples of Saxon rapiers c1600 are found with his name and three kings heads. One of these was from Munich with the cross and orb device as well, the other from Dresden.
Another reference notes Wundes using four kings heads, but this seems an exception.

It seems that the crowned blackamoor head may have to do with the rather exalted capacity many Moors held in the Holy Roman Empire, as seen in the case of the 1599 painting by Maarten de Vos, "Adoration of the Magi" with a Moor wearing a crown (representing Biblical King Balthazar) and in Roman attire.

With the Moors head symbolism, it is interesting to note that of the famed Munsten family of Solingen, Andres, brother of Peter, who worked in Solingen 1547-1587, went to Toledo in 1587 (to 1610) where along with a crowned 'A', he used an uncrowned Blackmoor head as his mark.
(Bezdek, p.148; Kinman p.56-57).

Clearly there was a cross influence of the kings heads used by Wundes and in these triangular configurations of three which is seen here with the crowned Blackamoor heads by IAHANNI in Styria. Would that name be an Italian version of 'Johannes' ?

The Blackamoor heads as appears crowned in German context and heraldry seems to allude very much to the Holy Roman Empire and the standing of these Moors in much of the history.

As always, it is amazing how much history we learn from these swords, and the often nuanced stories they tell us as we follow the clues. I know I learn a great deal here from the astute observations by Ulfberth and Jasper and their amazing resources and experience. I am also so grateful for Cathey always sharing these outstanding weapons her and Rex collect.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...This is a fascinating thread .. I found this from the webpage See http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm . Quote" The Moor's head is not rare in European heraldry. It still appears today in the arms of Sardinia and Corsica, as well as in the blazons of various noble families. Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown. The Moor's head is common in the Bavarian tradition and is known as the caput Ethiopicum or the Moor of Freising".Unquote.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you!

I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single.
In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers.

It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ??

It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases.
Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!!

[ulfberth]

Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head.
Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head.
Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ?
In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head.
Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head.
Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ?
In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI

kind regards

Ulfberth

Salaams Ulfberth ... If I may quote #13 above "Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown". I am however right out of my depth on this subject and invite Forum support !!

Jim, Very interesting on the IAHANNI Wundes which I will have to look at on your blade marks forum site...!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances.
Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads.
I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style.

Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking!

It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example.

Best regards
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahiim,
Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances.
Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads.
I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style.

Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking!

It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example.

Best regards
Jim

Salaams Jim, Just fresh from your blade marks and urge others to look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks in particular # 106 #119 #110 and the more important #226 where the Wundes famous crowns are shown as often multiple on a blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[iskender]

first :townseal of Cornol in the juramountains in switzerland where i have my holiday home. then a rapier out of my collection most likely johannes wundes the elder. stamped with a Ritterhelm, his name written wrong like on most of his blades his name is a mess.in these times maybe a priest or a lawyer etc.where able to write .So in this case IOHANNIS means JOHANNES . his surname Wundes see for yourself! the blade of him in the MET. NEW YORK is also original ! salamaleikum iskender

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I managed to flip the image of the mark Jim provided and place it in a table next to mine. Now they are both facing the same way they certainly appear to have much in common.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by iskender

first :townseal of Cornol in the juramountains in switzerland where i have my holiday home. then a rapier out of my collection most likely johannes wundes the elder. stamped with a Ritterhelm, his name written wrong like on most of his blades his name is a mess.in these times maybe a priest or a lawyer etc.where able to write .So in this case IOHANNIS means JOHANNES . his surname Wundes see for yourself! the blade of him in the MET. NEW YORK is also original ! salamaleikum iskender

That is a very nice rapier Iskender !
Its shape proportions, the design and the fullers....

kind regards

Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I managed to flip the image of the mark Jim provided and place it in a table next to mine. Now they are both facing the same way they certainly appear to have much in common.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hello Cathey

I agree that's a very similar mark, your sword rapier, reitschwert or haudegen is just in better condition and the stamps are still sharp.

kind regards

Ulfberth