Nube,and Nube Pics AND Of Course ??? :)

skeeter70 · 27th August 2007, 06:53 PM

VERY nice forum ya'll have here! Ive learned that Kris knife info is hard to find, or at least credible info on authentic knives anyway! VERY cool knives I never knew even exsisted. Some beautiful knife and knife pics here!

These belong to a freind of mine that is elderly and not computer literate. I volunteered to get him some info on them...way easier said than done! Most knives I found were repros...with no info. He picked them up sometime during his stint in the Navy. Someone who looked at them years ago that susposedly knew about these knives said they were authentic and had been dug YEARS ago. Susposedly dug up from graves, which was outlawed(?) years and years ago. Susposedly a couple of hundred years old(?)

ANY and all info would be very much appreciated as I know just about as much about brain surgery as I (or my friend) know about these knives. Type of wood, the proper name, type of steel....

A friend off a gun forum knew of you guys and said this was a great site with knowledgable and friendly people, I concur with him as Ive "lurked" a little

As for me, I had never heard of these neat knives until I saw his, in other words I don't know anything about them, and he knows little more. From Java, and I think one blade is Damascus steel(?)

ANY info regarding the type, history etc., would be very much appreciated, and no, he does not plan on selling them. So Im not looking for a "forum" appraisal...he believes they are maybe worth about $300 each, but that is no biggie, as he just thinks after owning them for over 50 years he'd like to know more about them.

They look way better than the pics of them I took for him. Thanks a lot in advance for the info!

...the other one

David · 28th August 2007, 02:45 AM

Welcome skeeter. Just so you know, it is against forum policy to give monetary appraisals, so i am glad this is not of great importance to you or your friend.
These do indeed appear to be authentic old keris, i would say at least 19th century, the first one from Jawa and the other a Bugis keris from Sulawesi. I seriously doubt they were "dug" as it is the tradition to pass keris on, not bury them with the dead. The sheaths leave something to be desired, but the blades and hilts are solid collectable pieces. Not upper class, but not junk either. The hilt on the Jawa keris is oriented in the wrong direction and shoulod be turned 180 degrees around. I like the pendokok (the metal piece between hilt and blade) on the Bugis keris.
Keris are not made with the same process as Damascus steel, though the effect can be somewhat similar to non-collecting.
I hope that helps a bit. I am sure others will also share opinions.

PenangsangII · 28th August 2007, 07:58 AM

The ladrang sheath of the Jawanese keris was dug alright

No, I mean it came from one piece of wood, the sheath maker had to "dig" the wood deeply right to the sheath tip, which is extremely difficult.

I also like the bugis one, I mean the blade, ferrule and hilt. They all look like well kept. Tough & solid warrior keris

David · 28th August 2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The ladrang sheath of the Jawanese keris was dug alright

No, I mean it came from one piece of wood, the sheath maker had to "dig" the wood deeply right to the sheath tip, which is extremely difficult.

Difficult for sure. I doubt i could do it.

However it doesn't appear to be very well executed and it is missing it's entire tail section which are my reasons for saying it leaves much to be desired.

Just so you don't get too confuse Skeeter, what Penangsang refers to as the "ferrule" on the Bugis keris is the same part that i called the pendokok.

skeeter70 · 28th August 2007, 04:34 PM

..First, thank ya'll! As stated, any and all info is appreciated! The info posted is new info to me, and will be to my friend also. Nah, $$$ value is of no importance, and thanks for letting me know that is against the rules, missed that! I stated that just to let everyone know I (he) was not one of "those", ya'll know what I mean Im sure.

Im just genuinely interested in anything about them. On the gun forums I belong to people are allowed to ask the value, but as expected they are new to the forums, and usually never post a pic or enough info to even get close to the actual value.

Already see that my friend had fallen for the myth (?) of them being dug.

I was thinking with what the maker had to work with as for as tools, the sheath would have been very difficult to make! ...and Keris, not "Kris"..

Thanks so much!

The metal work is awesome! The other pics Ive looked at here as well, some VERY nice knives! Boy, working metal to such a degree with limited tools and material is a feat unto itself, fascinating at the least! I wonder where/how they came upon/developed this technique? Wow!

Were these for decoritive/cerimonial purposes/fighting, or all three? Just what was their purpose? With metal probably being a valuable commodity back then, I can see why these would be passed on, makes sense. I assume they were highly prized by the families. I would imagine that there was only a select few "metal smiths" that learned and passed the technique down; in other words, not every Tom Dick and Harry new/practiced the metal working?

So the handle on the Jawa is facing the wrong direction in conjunction with the hilt? Should he attempt to turn the handle in the right direction, or leave it? Is it hard or "hazardous"

to turn the handle? Im am sure these seem like rather trivial questions, but not knowing anything about these....

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2007, 11:51 PM

Actually its not all that difficult to hollow out a gandar, and to make a wrongko in one piece. Yes, it does require a degree of skill, but this skill is more in the shaping of the outside of the wrongko, than in cutting the hole inside.To make that long hole in the gandar you first drill with a long bit. In Jawa they use the old-time bow drill, but it is possible to do it with a long series bit in an electric drill.Once the hole is drilled you use a tool called a segrek to open up the hole to accomodate the blade.A segrek is a bit like a cross between a saw and a rasp that cuts on the draw stroke.It takes one days work for an average tukang to make a standard gandar.

This wrongko is worth saving, and perfectly saveable. It can be reshaped into the kacir form.Pic of example shown, it would not need to be exactly like the pic.

Skeeter, turning the handle can be either very easy or quiite difficult and dangerous. I suggest that you try to turn it while gripping the blade wrapped in a piece of cloth. Gently work it back and forth with increasing pressure, but don't get too strong in the wrist, because it is possible to break the tang and/or split the handle. If you can get a little bit of movement you may find that you can turn it to the correct position. Above all, do not force it when it is cold.
We normally remove a stuck handle by heating the base of the blade gently. A candle, a small kerosene lamp, or passing quickly and repeatedly through a propane torch flame will give sufficient heat. Hold the blade a couple of inches from where the heat is applied so you will know if it is getting too hot. Heating and then trying to move the handle backwards and forth will normally loosen up any stuck handle. You can clean off any smoke black with mineral turpentine.

skeeter70 · 3rd September 2007, 11:37 PM

...Thank you all so much. This info is second nature to all of you, kinda like info about most anything to do with a Colt 1911...all models is to me....only countless hours of reading, buying, stripping down, replacing parts...all my Colt knowledge just came to me "overnight"

When I pass this info on to my buddy, he will know 100% more (as I now do

abour Keris knives...thanks again and ya'll all have a great Labor Day, whats left of it anyhow!

When I see him Thursday Ill pass this on to him...thanks again guys! Semper Fi! Richard

PS: Arie, Ill pass it on....

27th August 2007, 06:53 PM	#1
skeeter70 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3	Nube,and Nube Pics AND Of Course ??? :) VERY nice forum ya'll have here! Ive learned that Kris knife info is hard to find, or at least credible info on authentic knives anyway! VERY cool knives I never knew even exsisted. Some beautiful knife and knife pics here! These belong to a freind of mine that is elderly and not computer literate. I volunteered to get him some info on them...way easier said than done! Most knives I found were repros...with no info. He picked them up sometime during his stint in the Navy. Someone who looked at them years ago that susposedly knew about these knives said they were authentic and had been dug YEARS ago. Susposedly dug up from graves, which was outlawed(?) years and years ago. Susposedly a couple of hundred years old(?) ANY and all info would be very much appreciated as I know just about as much about brain surgery as I (or my friend) know about these knives. Type of wood, the proper name, type of steel.... A friend off a gun forum knew of you guys and said this was a great site with knowledgable and friendly people, I concur with him as Ive "lurked" a little As for me, I had never heard of these neat knives until I saw his, in other words I don't know anything about them, and he knows little more. From Java, and I think one blade is Damascus steel(?) ANY info regarding the type, history etc., would be very much appreciated, and no, he does not plan on selling them. So Im not looking for a "forum" appraisal...he believes they are maybe worth about $300 each, but that is no biggie, as he just thinks after owning them for over 50 years he'd like to know more about them. They look way better than the pics of them I took for him. Thanks a lot in advance for the info! ...the other one

28th August 2007, 04:34 PM	#5
skeeter70 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3	..First, thank ya'll! As stated, any and all info is appreciated! The info posted is new info to me, and will be to my friend also. Nah, $$$ value is of no importance, and thanks for letting me know that is against the rules, missed that! I stated that just to let everyone know I (he) was not one of "those", ya'll know what I mean Im sure. Im just genuinely interested in anything about them. On the gun forums I belong to people are allowed to ask the value, but as expected they are new to the forums, and usually never post a pic or enough info to even get close to the actual value. Already see that my friend had fallen for the myth (?) of them being dug. I was thinking with what the maker had to work with as for as tools, the sheath would have been very difficult to make! ...and Keris, not "Kris"..Thanks so much! The metal work is awesome! The other pics Ive looked at here as well, some VERY nice knives! Boy, working metal to such a degree with limited tools and material is a feat unto itself, fascinating at the least! I wonder where/how they came upon/developed this technique? Wow! Were these for decoritive/cerimonial purposes/fighting, or all three? Just what was their purpose? With metal probably being a valuable commodity back then, I can see why these would be passed on, makes sense. I assume they were highly prized by the families. I would imagine that there was only a select few "metal smiths" that learned and passed the technique down; in other words, not every Tom Dick and Harry new/practiced the metal working? So the handle on the Jawa is facing the wrong direction in conjunction with the hilt? Should he attempt to turn the handle in the right direction, or leave it? Is it hard or "hazardous" to turn the handle? Im am sure these seem like rather trivial questions, but not knowing anything about these....

28th August 2007, 11:51 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Actually its not all that difficult to hollow out a gandar, and to make a wrongko in one piece. Yes, it does require a degree of skill, but this skill is more in the shaping of the outside of the wrongko, than in cutting the hole inside.To make that long hole in the gandar you first drill with a long bit. In Jawa they use the old-time bow drill, but it is possible to do it with a long series bit in an electric drill.Once the hole is drilled you use a tool called a segrek to open up the hole to accomodate the blade.A segrek is a bit like a cross between a saw and a rasp that cuts on the draw stroke.It takes one days work for an average tukang to make a standard gandar. This wrongko is worth saving, and perfectly saveable. It can be reshaped into the kacir form.Pic of example shown, it would not need to be exactly like the pic. Skeeter, turning the handle can be either very easy or quiite difficult and dangerous. I suggest that you try to turn it while gripping the blade wrapped in a piece of cloth. Gently work it back and forth with increasing pressure, but don't get too strong in the wrist, because it is possible to break the tang and/or split the handle. If you can get a little bit of movement you may find that you can turn it to the correct position. Above all, do not force it when it is cold. We normally remove a stuck handle by heating the base of the blade gently. A candle, a small kerosene lamp, or passing quickly and repeatedly through a propane torch flame will give sufficient heat. Hold the blade a couple of inches from where the heat is applied so you will know if it is getting too hot. Heating and then trying to move the handle backwards and forth will normally loosen up any stuck handle. You can clean off any smoke black with mineral turpentine. Attached Images

28th August 2007, 02:45 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Welcome skeeter. Just so you know, it is against forum policy to give monetary appraisals, so i am glad this is not of great importance to you or your friend. These do indeed appear to be authentic old keris, i would say at least 19th century, the first one from Jawa and the other a Bugis keris from Sulawesi. I seriously doubt they were "dug" as it is the tradition to pass keris on, not bury them with the dead. The sheaths leave something to be desired, but the blades and hilts are solid collectable pieces. Not upper class, but not junk either. The hilt on the Jawa keris is oriented in the wrong direction and shoulod be turned 180 degrees around. I like the pendokok (the metal piece between hilt and blade) on the Bugis keris. Keris are not made with the same process as Damascus steel, though the effect can be somewhat similar to non-collecting. I hope that helps a bit. I am sure others will also share opinions.

28th August 2007, 07:58 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	The ladrang sheath of the Jawanese keris was dug alright No, I mean it came from one piece of wood, the sheath maker had to "dig" the wood deeply right to the sheath tip, which is extremely difficult. I also like the bugis one, I mean the blade, ferrule and hilt. They all look like well kept. Tough & solid warrior keris

3rd September 2007, 11:37 PM	#7
skeeter70 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3	...Thank you all so much. This info is second nature to all of you, kinda like info about most anything to do with a Colt 1911...all models is to me....only countless hours of reading, buying, stripping down, replacing parts...all my Colt knowledge just came to me "overnight" When I pass this info on to my buddy, he will know 100% more (as I now do abour Keris knives...thanks again and ya'll all have a great Labor Day, whats left of it anyhow! When I see him Thursday Ill pass this on to him...thanks again guys! Semper Fi! Richard PS: Arie, Ill pass it on....