Bhuj? Age? Origin?

Sajen · 15th January 2018, 09:37 PM

Hello dear members,

just have bought this polearm, I think it's a Bhuj from either Sind or Kutch but I am unsure. The examples I found in the net or at other places have had a pole grip from metal. It's 90 cm overall, more I can't say until I have it in my hands. The pictures are from the seller. All informations and comments are very welcome!

kai · 16th January 2018, 01:47 PM

Hello Detlef,

Now, that's a full tang on steroids!

The 2 hanger rings seem to be unusual, too.

Quote:

just have bought this polearm, I think it's a Bhuj

It does look like a bhuj crafted for real business - it sure has a double-handed infighting feel to it!

Regards,
Kai

drac2k · 16th January 2018, 03:25 PM

Looks great and well made!With the full tang going down the handle it must be a fairly substantial weapon.Are the rings used for lanyards or a sling to wear over the shoulder?It looks like it would be effective for use on horseback.
Well here is another item that I have to add to my bucket list.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th January 2018, 05:38 PM

Congratulations.
Its quite an interesting Bhuj.
The size itself is quite big. The haft witgh the very long tang is interesting, as are the two rings. The blade form is unusual, althought seen before, with the reinforced tip, which adds weight and strength to the blade, or it would have been too weak for any action.
What I find especially interesting is, the stylized elaphant head (or that is what I see), at the base of the blade and handle. You only see it in profile, where it mostly is shown in detail.
Interesting too is, that there, for obvious reasons, is not hidden knife in the haft.

Sajen · 16th January 2018, 06:14 PM

Thank you all for comment, very appreciated!

The rings which seems to be for a carrying belt I am as well never have seen before by a bhuj and also not this full tang construction. Soon as I will have it in my hands I will take pictures and will tell you the feel in the hands, I think that it's a substantial weapon and like Kai write worked for real business. If it's used on horseback I can't say, I just don't know enough about this sort of weapon.

Jens, interesting suggestion about the stylized elaphant head! Do you have an idea about the exact origin and an age guess?

Thank you again,
Detlef

CharlesS · 16th January 2018, 06:26 PM

Looks like it's going to be a stunner!!! Are you planning to clean it up a bit? The gray color of the blade suggests perhaps wootz!

Detlef, congrats on a lovely and unique find!

kai · 16th January 2018, 07:36 PM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

The gray color of the blade suggests perhaps wootz

Considering the full tang construction, I'm more inclined to believe this blade is laminated rather than forged from crucible steel.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 16th January 2018, 07:46 PM

Hello Jens,

Thanks for weighting in!

Quote:

What I find especially interesting is, the stylized elaphant head (or that is what I see), at the base of the blade and handle. You only see it in profile, where it mostly is shown in detail.

Interesting thought! You mean essentially the bolster area, I guess? That would be very stylized compared to the very figural, typical examples, indeed. No eyes, ears possibly indicated by the tapering bolster, with only a vague trunk extending down vertically...

I'm sure Detlef can provide close-ups soon for us to get a clearer picture!

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 16th January 2018, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looks like it's going to be a stunner!!! Are you planning to clean it up a bit? The gray color of the blade suggests perhaps wootz!

Detlef, congrats on a lovely and unique find!

Thank you Charles! This piece deserves certainly a proper polish and etch and as well a reshape of the tip from the blade, it seems to be compressed. It would be a big extra when the blade is from wootz, we will see!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 16th January 2018, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks for weighting in!

Also a big "thank you" from me also!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'm sure Detlef can provide close-ups soon for us to get a clearer picture!

You can be sure about this!

kai · 16th January 2018, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Are the rings used for lanyards or a sling to wear over the shoulder?

I was thinking along those lines. However, the distance between the rings is only 11-12 inches which would make carrying it across the back not really feasible. And when carrying it over the shoulder, the heavy blade will most likely keep tipping over (and possibly loosing any scabbard).

Quote:

It looks like it would be effective for use on horseback.

IMHO this doesn't look like a blade that one would want to wield with a single hand (at least upon impact), much less from horseback...

I guess, we do need to handle this piece for getting a better grip on it...

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 17th January 2018, 07:18 PM

Detlef, I could try to guess, but I would rather not, as long as I have not had it in my hand.
The decorations (in this case an elephant head), can be very stylized, and can often be seen on katars - but in this casethey are peacocks, or on gauntlet swords.
Often you have to know what to look for, before you can see them. To this comes that you will have to know how the animals used were shown at the time - so grab a few books.
I must also add, that it is the first time I have seen an elephant head like this - which does not mean a lot, as I have not seen it all.

Mercenary · 19th January 2018, 10:58 PM

This is one of the few real items. It's not a souvenir of the late 19th - early 20th century "with a dagger in the handle and the elephant" - numerous copies of real but few ceremonial items of Kutch province. This one is the real historical item from Rajasthan. In Urdu it was called "daste-das" (meaning and translation the same as "bhuj"). Very rare stroke of luck. You're lucky.

Sajen · 20th January 2018, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Detlef, I could try to guess, but I would rather not, as long as I have not had it in my hand.
The decorations (in this case an elephant head), can be very stylized, and can often be seen on katars - but in this casethey are peacocks, or on gauntlet swords.
Often you have to know what to look for, before you can see them. To this comes that you will have to know how the animals used were shown at the time - so grab a few books.
I must also add, that it is the first time I have seen an elephant head like this - which does not mean a lot, as I have not seen it all.

Hello Jens,

thank you anyway. I've just taken pictures from it, I still need to resize them before I can post them.

Thank you again,
Detlef

Sajen · 20th January 2018, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

This is one of the few real items. It's not a souvenir of the late 19th - early 20th century "with a dagger in the handle and the elephant" - numerous copies of real but few ceremonial items of Kutch province. This one is the real historical item from Rajasthan. In Urdu it was called "daste-das" (meaning and translation the same as "bhuj"). Very rare stroke of luck. You're lucky.

Thank you very much Mercenary!

Best regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 21st January 2018, 03:02 PM

Have received the beast, the blade is laminated, the tip is compressed and a little bit bent, the bolster isn't integral with the blade but "hard-soldered" and the two plates are different thick and it seems that they were red painted at one time, there are still some red paint visible. It's a heavy weapon and thought as thrusting weapon IMVHO instead of slashing. When I attach a string at the two rings the weapon is exactly in balance so I suspect that there was once attached a belt which can laid over the shoulder due the heavy weight of it (approx. 1 kg).
I've taken many pictures, please excuse the quality, it's the best I can manage by the light we have in the moment in Germany.

Sajen · 21st January 2018, 03:15 PM

More

Sajen · 21st January 2018, 03:18 PM

And here a size comparison with my toa.

Norman McCormick · 21st January 2018, 07:49 PM

Hi Detlef,
This is an Indian axe of mine that also has red pigment used to accentuate the designs. I never quite managed to I.D. with absolute certainty the when and the where although Oriental Arms had an axe with red pigmentation and described as probably 18thC and South Indian.
Regards,
Norman.

Ian · 21st January 2018, 09:28 PM

Hi Detlef,

I have a folding Lohar axe with red pigment on various parts of the piece and have also wondered about its significance. Perhaps this is a form of sacred blessing (puja). Maybe some of our Southern Asian members could explain more.

Ian.

Sajen · 21st January 2018, 10:28 PM

Hello Norman and Ian,

most interesting! And like Ian I hope that someone who is more familiar with Indian weapons will be able to explain why this red pigment is added to the weapons.

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 22nd January 2018, 01:56 AM

Japanese had red paint in the fuller of their naginatas

ariel · 22nd January 2018, 02:00 AM

Egerton has a similar example in his book, listed as Buckie.
I have 2, but their blades are of normal uniform thickness and are straight.
Here is one of them.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd January 2018, 05:04 PM

For the same kind of red lac see A Passion for Indian Arms pp. 350-53, or the picture below.

Sajen · 22nd January 2018, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Egerton has a similar example in his book, listed as Buckie.
I have 2, but their blades are of normal uniform thickness and are straight.
Here is one of them.

Hello Ariel,

yes, it will be used in a similar way but it seems to be a different weapon.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 22nd January 2018, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

For the same kind of red lac see A Passion for Indian Arms pp. 350-53, or the picture below.

Thank you Jens!

Regards,
Detlef

15th January 2018, 09:37 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,787	Bhuj? Age? Origin? Hello dear members, just have bought this polearm, I think it's a Bhuj from either Sind or Kutch but I am unsure. The examples I found in the net or at other places have had a pole grip from metal. It's 90 cm overall, more I can't say until I have it in my hands. The pictures are from the seller. All informations and comments are very welcome! Attached Images

16th January 2018, 05:38 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Congratulations. Its quite an interesting Bhuj. The size itself is quite big. The haft witgh the very long tang is interesting, as are the two rings. The blade form is unusual, althought seen before, with the reinforced tip, which adds weight and strength to the blade, or it would have been too weak for any action. What I find especially interesting is, the stylized elaphant head (or that is what I see), at the base of the blade and handle. You only see it in profile, where it mostly is shown in detail. Interesting too is, that there, for obvious reasons, is not hidden knife in the haft. Attached Images

16th January 2018, 06:14 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,787	Thank you all for comment, very appreciated! The rings which seems to be for a carrying belt I am as well never have seen before by a bhuj and also not this full tang construction. Soon as I will have it in my hands I will take pictures and will tell you the feel in the hands, I think that it's a substantial weapon and like Kai write worked for real business. If it's used on horseback I can't say, I just don't know enough about this sort of weapon. Jens, interesting suggestion about the stylized elaphant head! Do you have an idea about the exact origin and an age guess? Thank you again, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 16th January 2018 at 11:11 PM.

21st January 2018, 03:02 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,787	Have received the beast, the blade is laminated, the tip is compressed and a little bit bent, the bolster isn't integral with the blade but "hard-soldered" and the two plates are different thick and it seems that they were red painted at one time, there are still some red paint visible. It's a heavy weapon and thought as thrusting weapon IMVHO instead of slashing. When I attach a string at the two rings the weapon is exactly in balance so I suspect that there was once attached a belt which can laid over the shoulder due the heavy weight of it (approx. 1 kg). I've taken many pictures, please excuse the quality, it's the best I can manage by the light we have in the moment in Germany. Attached Images

21st January 2018, 03:15 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,787	More Attached Images

16th January 2018, 03:25 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Looks great and well made!With the full tang going down the handle it must be a fairly substantial weapon.Are the rings used for lanyards or a sling to wear over the shoulder?It looks like it would be effective for use on horseback. Well here is another item that I have to add to my bucket list.

16th January 2018, 06:26 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Looks like it's going to be a stunner!!! Are you planning to clean it up a bit? The gray color of the blade suggests perhaps wootz! Detlef, congrats on a lovely and unique find!

17th January 2018, 07:18 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Detlef, I could try to guess, but I would rather not, as long as I have not had it in my hand. The decorations (in this case an elephant head), can be very stylized, and can often be seen on katars - but in this casethey are peacocks, or on gauntlet swords. Often you have to know what to look for, before you can see them. To this comes that you will have to know how the animals used were shown at the time - so grab a few books. I must also add, that it is the first time I have seen an elephant head like this - which does not mean a lot, as I have not seen it all.

19th January 2018, 10:58 PM	#13
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	This is one of the few real items. It's not a souvenir of the late 19th - early 20th century "with a dagger in the handle and the elephant" - numerous copies of real but few ceremonial items of Kutch province. This one is the real historical item from Rajasthan. In Urdu it was called "daste-das" (meaning and translation the same as "bhuj"). Very rare stroke of luck. You're lucky.

21st January 2018, 03:18 PM	#18
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,787	And here a size comparison with my toa. Attached Images

21st January 2018, 07:49 PM	#19
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Detlef, This is an Indian axe of mine that also has red pigment used to accentuate the designs. I never quite managed to I.D. with absolute certainty the when and the where although Oriental Arms had an axe with red pigmentation and described as probably 18thC and South Indian. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

21st January 2018, 09:28 PM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Detlef, I have a folding Lohar axe with red pigment on various parts of the piece and have also wondered about its significance. Perhaps this is a form of sacred blessing (puja). Maybe some of our Southern Asian members could explain more. Ian.

21st January 2018, 10:28 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,787	Hello Norman and Ian, most interesting! And like Ian I hope that someone who is more familiar with Indian weapons will be able to explain why this red pigment is added to the weapons. Regards, Detlef

22nd January 2018, 01:56 AM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Japanese had red paint in the fuller of their naginatas

22nd January 2018, 02:00 AM	#23
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Egerton has a similar example in his book, listed as Buckie. I have 2, but their blades are of normal uniform thickness and are straight. Here is one of them. Attached Images

22nd January 2018, 05:04 PM	#24
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	For the same kind of red lac see A Passion for Indian Arms pp. 350-53, or the picture below. Attached Images