Naga keris - original?

[erikscollectables]

Just received this in the mail.
Bought the keris for the nice Madura sarong it was in.
That might be good because I have some doubts if this naga is original or a later addition....

The keris/wilah itself I think is old. I am surprised though by the structure/texture/colour of the pamor and the length of the peksi. I do not have the impression this is recent work byt on the other hand it is quite different from what I see on a regular basis....

Would like to hear your opinions on this as I am far from specialist in these matters.

Regards, Erik

[erikscollectables]

No opinions around on this naga keris?

[Henk]

Brand new keris. Poorly executed. Sorry.

[Battara]

Is this because it lacks ron do and the way it was heavily etched?

[Henk]

The way of heavily etching, yes, but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, if by "recent" you mean a keris that has been produced within the last 120 years or so, I agree with you.

However, this keris does not bear the indicators of one that has been made since, say, 1975.

Current keris production is limited to rather specific areas, and has rather specific styles, which are pretty easy to recognise once you've seen enough of them.

This blade does not bear any of those indicators.

To my eye, this is a blade that has been produced after, say, 1880, it is quite low quality, and it lacks any artistic refinement. The 1880 date is very much a ballpark figure, but it is not a blade from any of the current sources of production.

[Henk]

Alan,

As always you are a well of inspiration.

In my opinion the keris is much younger than 1975. I based my opinion mainly on the thick sturdy pesi, hardly untouched by time. Also the cruel naga did strengthen my opinion of very recent manufacture.

Maybe you are able to enlighten us, and tell us something more about the specific styles. Illustrated with some pictures.
As always I'm gladly willing to learn and I'm sure other forummembers will be very happy receiving your lessons.

Here in Holland some large collectors will classify this type of keris as recent manufacture. Based on that knowledge from those collectors I made my statement.

[asomotif]

Could the naga be of later date ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk,

Firstly I would like to break the last 100 years into smaller bite sized lumps, and I am only going to talk about Central Jawa, East Jawa, and Madura, which is in fact a part of East Jawa.

Up until the time the Japanese occupied Indonesia there was still keris making going on. Some very high quality blades were produced in the Karatons of Central Jawa, and keris of a much lower quality were being made in East Jawa and Madura.

These East Jawa and Madura keris were stiff in their form, they nearly always used simple mlumah pamor, if they were picture keris --- ie, with nagas or whatever --- those pictures were pretty crude and often evidence of modern technolgy was there to be seen, such as drilled rather than punched holes.

With the Japanese occupation keris manufacture stopped, and there was no keris manufacture again until perhaps the 1950's, but what did take place during the 1950's and 1960's was only very, very limited, and not widespread.

During the 1970's interest in the keris began to arise again, and in the mid-1970's Dietrich Drescher became instrumental in the resurgence of keris manufacture in Jogja --- we all know this story.

However, prior to this there was at least one man in Jogja who was producing forgeries for the keris trade, and he stayed in business doing this until around 1990.He altered old keris, but he also made new keris and artificially aged them.

After keris manufacture had begun again in Jogja, it became evident in Solo, the keris school was established in the ASKI, then the Madura keris makers decided to get serious and upgrade their operations.Keris production in Madura had never really stopped. It is now often claimed that they only began to make keris after the resurgence in Central Jawa, but this is incorrect. After the resurgence in Central Jawa they modernised and a younger generation recognised a business opportunity, however, relatives of my wife had obtained keris sourced from these Madura makers in the period from the mid - 1920's through to the 1960's.

When the new generation of Madura makers began, their product was pretty ugly, and did not really conform to Central Javanese standards for keris, however there has been consistent improvement in the Madura product, and people from this group now produce perhaps some of the finest keris ever made.

The above is only a brief over-view. I have not attempted to cover all of the minor manufacturing areas, however, any minor operations can be linked to these two major schools of Central Jawa and East Jawa.

To return to the keris in question.

This keris is not in a style that can be associated with the school of Central Jawa, nor the school of East Jawa/Madura in the period 1980 to the present.

In other words it was not made later than 1980.

In some respects it does resemble keris that can be associated with the East Jawa/Madura product of 1920's to 1960's.

The indicators are the stiff pawakan, the flat gonjo, the method of naga sculpture, the pamor style, the luk style.

The pesi is most definitely not "thick and sturdy". This is a weak, poorly formed pesi and has bad proportions. It is very irregular in form demonsrating lack of care in manufacture, probably also the removal of rust.

Henk, you cannot use the degree of corrosion on a pesi as an indicator of age. Sometimes in a poorly maintained keris a pesi will completely erode over a 100 year period, on the other hand, a well maintained keris may show no erosion at all over a period of several hundred years. I have a 18th century keris that went to Holland prior to 1800, and the pesi on this keris is as if it came off the bench yesterday. I have a tombak by Jayasukadgo that has a pesi that looks brand new. The pesi is a valuable indicator when appraising a blade, but it can only assist in an assessment of age under very limited circumstances.

As for photos.

Photographs use a lot of time. I first need to find suitable examples amongst those keris that I am prepared to allow to be viewed; then I need to prepare them to be photographed; then I need to photograph them; then I need to process the photos; then I need to publish them either here or in my site. What you are talking about is probably 3 to 5 days work. Quite simply I am not prepared to do that work, because it takes me away from work that produces income.Something like this post I can write in perhaps 20-30 minutes, but photos are a major committment of time.

Additionally, I have no stake in whether what I write is accepted or not. I've told you what I believe to be true, it is of absolutely no consequence to me if you accept it or not.However, what I have written is backed up by over 50 years of experience, which includes the handling of literally thousands of blades every year for the last 20 years at least. Accept or reject:- up to you.

The question as to whether the naga might have been added to the blade cannot be answered from a photo. It is an outside possibility, but it would be necessary to handle the blade in order to support an opinion.

[kai]

Hello Erik,

How well does the blade fit to the Madura scabbard?

I'm tempted to agree with Henk's assessment that this blade is possibly a recent keris-like object (KLO) either produced for those travelling for pleasure or maybe as cheap props for wedding ceremonies. AFAIK there are quite a few current centers/smiths throughout Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula and most also cater to the tourist market. The Medan area seems to be a good example with bladesmiths as well as silverworking and carving specialists getting better at imitating genuine pieces aiming at the serious collector market; low-end KLOs keep being mass-produced for tourists, too. Other areas also produce tourist pieces with qualities ranging from decent to abysmal; usually, tools (fieldwork, kitchen, etc.) as well as genuine ethnographic pieces (often of village quality) are also offered for the local market - these seem to quite rarely find their way into the western world though. Then there are Indonesian smiths catering to the global market for utility blades, ethnographic repros, custom knifes, and fantasy blades...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I remember seeing blades with similar ugly pamor, in Sumatran style, and of quite recent production. I'm not sure I cared to archive pics but will have a look...

These East Jawa and Madura keris were stiff in their form, they nearly always used simple mlumah pamor, if they were picture keris --- ie, with nagas or whatever --- those pictures were pretty crude and often evidence of modern technolgy was there to be seen, such as drilled rather than punched holes.

In some respects it does resemble keris that can be associated with the East Jawa/Madura product of 1920's to 1960's.

The indicators are the stiff pawakan, the flat gonjo, the method of naga sculpture, the pamor style, the luk style.

Thanks a lot for your detailed info! This certainly makes more sense in light of the Madurese fittings.

Does such crude/ugly pamor also pop up from other areas like central Jawa or Sunda?

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I have not yet seen this type of pamor in a recent keris that originated in Central Jawa, when I see this type of pamor my first thought is always East Jawa/Madura, and prior to about 1980.

I know of no unique keris manufacturing being carried out in Sunda. There is considerable blade manufacturing done in the Bandung area, but to my knowledge not keris. Jakarta work is a part of the two major schools.

I believe a close investigation of the other areas you mention might reveal that insofar as blades are concerned you are looking at distribution centers for East Jawa production, and in any case, this is a fairly new phenomenon, I believe. Going back ten or fifteen years I did not see anything much except older pieces coming out of those areas in Sumatra. Regarding Peninsula production, I have no personal knowledge, but I have had blades referred to me by people in Malaysia who told me that they were the product of Malaysian makers, however, as far as I am concerned, those blades originated in Sumenep.

It is most definitely not correct to brand every keris of less than good quality as a "keris-like-object".

Keris have been made in Jawa for no other purpose than as items of dress since at least the beginning of the 19th century. Are these keris like objects? Of course not, and no sane person would say they were.

Keris being made now are made as either works of art, collectables, or as items of dress. Are these keris like objects?

I noticed another thread just posted within the last hour or so. There you can see a KLO.

The keris that is under discussion here is in no way, shape or form a KLO.

It is a low quality keris that was probably produced for the local market as an item of dress.

Most keris production of the current era has been for local consumption. People still need a keris to complete formal dress, and low quality keris are produced for this reason.

The volume of sales to tourists and outside the local market is minimal.

This whole idea of "the tourist market" is so far from reality as to be absurd. The things that get sold to tourists in the major tourist areas of Jawa and Bali are for the most part genuine keris dressed to accomodate a bule's taste and pocket.Occasionally you will find a horror with batik pamor on a flat iron blade, but I haven't noticed any of this garbage in maybe 20 years.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I have not yet seen this type of pamor in a recent keris that originated in Central Jawa, when I see this type of pamor my first thought is always East Jawa/Madura, and prior to about 1980.

How about earlier pieces from central Jawa? (Not in reference to the keris under discussion - just for curiosity and learning )

I believe a close investigation of the other areas you mention might reveal that insofar as blades are concerned you are looking at distribution centers for East Jawa production

I've seen those recent trade blades, too. In addition, there seem to be "local traditions." I'll add pics when I come across such pieces.

this is a fairly new phenomenon, I believe. Going back ten or fifteen years I did not see anything much except older pieces coming out of those areas in Sumatra.

I'm not sure about the exact timeframe but this does seem to be a revival/added income thing following the Jawa/Madura story, indeed.

Regarding Peninsula production, I have no personal knowledge, but I have had blades referred to me by people in Malaysia who told me that they were the product of Malaysian makers, however, as far as I am concerned, those blades originated in Sumenep.

There is ongoing keris production in Malaysia for a limited local medium/high-end market, especially in the northern states AFAIK. There also seems to be local production in very low-end pieces (mainly for wedding ceremonies).

It is most definitely not correct to brand every keris of less than good quality as a "keris-like-object".

I noticed another thread just posted within the last hour or so. There you can see a KLO.

Yes, point taken. I agree that the nominer KLO should be confined to the latter piece (that one is an undisputable example) - I was kinda mixing both threads.

The volume of sales to tourists and outside the local market is minimal.

In the overall picture this may be correct. However, there seem to be typical tourist destinations which are flooded with products specifically aimed at the respective buyers like the Lake Toba area (or Kuching with mandau-like objects, etc.).

Occasionally you will find a horror with batik pamor on a flat iron blade, but I haven't noticed any of this garbage in maybe 20 years.

You've been looking in the wrong places - these are still very much around pouring out of Bali in the usual gaudy fittings!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I'm not going to attempt to respond to all of your post.
I have stated my opinion based upon my experience. I have no intention of defending that opinion, and I have no interest at all in whether it is accepted or not. I have simply given a little of my time to pass along some things that I believe to be true. I am not addressing the question of hilts, scabbards and other dress, my comments apply only to blades.

However, I will add this:-

Regarding Lake Toba and other tourist destinations in SE Asia.
The keris that I have seen coming out of those areas in recent years have all had either old, very low quality blades or recent Madura blades.Dress has varied, and I'm not commenting here on dress.

Regarding what has been available in Bali during the last ten years.

Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong places. When I am in Bali I routinely vist three well known keris dealers, all the antique shops in Klungkung, some of the antique and art shops in the Mas-Ubud area, all the antique/art/craft shops that I know of in the Kuta- Legian area, and occasionally the big market in Den Pasar and some of the art shops in Den Pasar.I never visit Sanur nor do I visit some of the outlying tourist destinations.

I thought I had the ground pretty well covered, but I admit, I've only been doing the rounds in Bali since 1974 --- my visits before that were mostly concentrated on the beach --- and it is entirely possible that there may be sellers around of whom I do not know.

However, although I saw a fair representation of flat iron batik blades through into the early 1990's, I have not seen any during the last ten years or so --- none that were presented as real keris, in any case. I have noticed a few very, very rubbishy Javanese things with hawkers and in little stalls, but these could never be confused with a keris, the prices equate to the cost of decent cup of coffee. Serious attempts at keris as tourist souvenirs have pretty much disappeared, and have been replaced by genuine low quality blades in dress that will appeal to western tourists, and tourists from other parts of Indonesia. During the last few years there have been a lot of tourists in Bali from Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities. Foriegn tourists have decreased a fair bit.

Regarding the pamor on the keris in question, I thought I had already covered that query about pamor.
When I see this pamor I need some sort of solid evidence to convince me that it is not East Jawa, and from prior to 1980.
This sort of heavily textured ngulit semangko pamor may occur in Central Javanese keris, but I cannot recall having seen it.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by kai

How about earlier pieces from central Jawa? (Not in reference to the keris under discussion - just for curiosity and learning )

Dear Kai,
Just for sharing pictures. This is one of my "naga" collection, not newly keris piece IMHO. A Mataramese style keris with dhapur of "Naga Kikik" luk five, in Yogyakartan sheath...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Pak Ganja, typical of its type, but in no way similar to the pamor in the keris that has been under discussion.

I'm out of this discussion for the next 2 or 3 days. Personal committments.

[Jean]

Hello gentlemen,
I am a new member to this forum altough I have followed your discussions with a strong interest for several years. I decided to join especially because I was the previous owner of this kris before it fled to the NL... For those of you who have my book, you can see it on picture 28E.
I bought it on Ebay few years ago from an American seller who did not know anything about it but it was said to be part of an estate collection if I remember well.... The sheath is in jurigan madurese style and is semi old although the silver attachements may be recently made. The blade fits perfectly into the slot, which was not recently cut if I remember well. The original hilt was in rare bajing loncat style and also semi-old or old, and this was the priority incentive for me for buying the kris.
I had obviously the same questions as yourselves about the age of the blade, I sent the picture to at least one Indonesian expert but he was not too sure about it but inclined to think that it is old. I lived in Indonesia and saw thousands of kris blades but not a single one which I could remember as having a similar pamor as this one (roughly applied and very shiny but different from the usual tourist krisses). Accordingly I would personally concur with Alan to believe that this is probably a village-quality blade made in Madura about 50 years ago.
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Hi Jean. Thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.
Please forgive me, but i am afraid that i do not recognize your identity just from your first name. What book on keris did you write?

[tunggulametung]

Hello,

Just wanted to add to the discussion that from own experience I've seen some what I believe older pieces/have some age with similar pamor work coming from Madura, the blade shape as well. The other good example of pamor and other blade workmanship attributed to Madura (sometimes also East Java) is on photo 28A on Jean's book.

Can't say that the naga is later addition or not but I think it is a rare occasions for people adding a naga later. If the price of a keris with naga is a question, it might be cheaper to buy a complete keris with naga (say of the equal quality) then to commision a naga carving to a 'normal/standard' gandik.

Hello Jean, welcome to the forum...

Thanks.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jean. Thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.
What book on keris did you write?

Hi David,
Thank you for the welcome and congratulations for your work and also to all the members of the forum! The title of my book is "The Kris, a passion from Indonesia", I self-published it in January 2008 and Alam Shah made a review at that time.
Best regards
Jean

[Jean]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,

Can't say that the naga is later addition or not but I think it is a rare occasions for people adding a naga later.

Hello Jean, welcome to the forum...

Hello Chandra,
Thank you for the welcome and I would agree that the naga was not added later on this blade as there is no trace of welding or any discontinuity in the pamor.
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,
Thank you for the welcome and congratulations for your work and also to all the members of the forum! The title of my book is "The Kris, a passion from Indonesia", I self-published it in January 2008 and Alam Shah made a review at that time.
Best regards
Jean

Thanks Jean. I did a google search for "keris book jean" and found this info out and of course i do remember when this book had it's release. Sorry to say that i do not own it yet, but it looks interesting.

[Gustav]

Dear Sirs,

here comes the second new member. I discovered this forum about a half of year ago, and have read the posts with greatest interest every day.

Please, be patient with my very limited English and stupid questions, I am an absolute newcomer in the world of Keris.

Thank You very much!

Regarding this Naga keris - is the Ganja really separate? The same question I have regarding the Keris from the thread "Eastern Java keris/Pamor Bendo Segodo??" from 17th June.

[Sajen]

Welcome to the forum Jean. I have your book and understand that you buy this keris because the sheat and handle. I also like the jurigan style wrangkas. And when you see the complete keris in the book and the blade fits perfect inside the sheat it will be like Mr. Maisey write before, it isn't a recent keris. I also have handled keris in this form before.
sajen

[Marcokeris]

Welcome to the forum Jean. Are you in Indonesia now?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Welcome to the forum Jean. Are you in Indonesia now?

Hello Marco,
Thanks for your welcome. I am not in Indonesia at present but hope to visit again next year. I am glad to report that I am working on a new book "Kris hilts, small masterpieces from Indonesia" with combined text in English and French which I hope to publish at the end of the year (if I can find an interested publisher) and with better pictures that the last one.
Best regards
Jean

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Jean. I did a google search for "keris book jean" and found this info out and of course i do remember when this book had it's release. Sorry to say that i do not own it yet, but it looks interesting.

Hi David,
Actually the book is no longer available in English version (I printed 120 copies only) except may be with Erik Farrow but at a quite high price...
As pointed-out by Alam Shah, the expert collectors may not learn much from it except to see various and classified specimens of krisses, hilts, and daggers, I wrote it mostly for the kris beginners and it was quite successful in the NL especially.
Best regards
Jean

[Gustav]

In the last time I have seen another east-javanese/maduranese Keris, probably the begin of the second half of 19 century, in a good dress (most likely original), with a similar kind of pamor, and ganja also seems to be not separate.

(I hope, the attachment works)

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Sirs,

here comes the second new member. I discovered this forum about a half of year ago, and have read the posts with greatest interest every day.

Please, be patient with my very limited English and stupid questions, I am an absolute newcomer in the world of Keris.

Thank You very much!

Regarding this Naga keris - is the Ganja really separate? The same question I have regarding the Keris from the thread "Eastern Java keris/Pamor Bendo Segodo??" from 17th June.

Welcome to the forums Gustav !
There are no stupid questions here .

We do prohibit making appraisals or discussing pieces currently on ebay or other sales venues .

That's about it .

Enjoy and again, welcome !

[Gustav]

Rick,

thank You for the welcome!