Dated flintlock mechanism

Marcus den toom · 28th February 2014, 02:04 PM

A beautiful flintlock mechanism from G B L Burgunon and a possible date of 1636?
The 3 is mirrored, which confuses me. The overall style of the lock is that of around 1640's so i doubt the possibility of the date beeing 1686. Also, there is no evidence of the lock beeing cleaned or rubbed. The numbering is as crisp as all the other engravings/lettering.

The sear is missing and some screws are marred, other than this the lock is in very good condition. The pancover has been repaired in the old fashion. After so many shots, the pancover would be worn away at the striking point of the flint.

The lock is 15,5 cm overall

Marcus den toom · 28th February 2014, 02:05 PM

Some more details

Matchlock · 28th February 2014, 02:56 PM

As the maker is apparently unrecorded we can but speculate.

My first guess concerning the date of manufacture would have been 'not before 1645', so why not read the date as 1656? This is more reasonble and would make your lock mechanism contemporary with my Schloss Dyck musket signed by Chiese, St. Etienne.

m

Marcus den toom · 28th February 2014, 04:18 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you for this comparison

. I was thinking about this possibility as well, but the line beneath the half circle is going askew to the left

I also believe that the schloss Dyck lock is more recent than the Burgunon one. The hammer does have the same duck beak shape, but the burgunon one is more massive in the "head" section of the hammer, also the base is not rounded and larger than the schloss Dyck one
As far as i can tell from the books i got, the hammer slowly evolved to the swan neck? The schloss Dyck lock seems to be further down this line than the burgunon one?

Sadly, there is no forum member called Flintlock... seeing as Michael provided a very good overview of the matchlocks (matchlock chronicle).

Matchlock · 28th February 2014, 05:35 PM

Thank you, and you are right indeed, Marcus,

But the ultimate work on flintlock weapons still is Dr. Torsten Lenk's Flintl°aset, dess uppkomst och utveckling from 1939. Sadly, the photos in the English edition The Flintlock - its Origin and Development in one volume are much worse than in the German 2-volume edition Steinschloss-Feuerwaffen, 1969.

Lenk pictures some firearms with locks almost identical to your instance and assigns them to the 1640's for Paris (!), as I did at first.

I once owned a heavy flintlock wallgun employing a very similar mechanism of ca. 1645:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...5+schloss+dyck

m

Marcus den toom · 28th February 2014, 05:48 PM

Could you scan a view of these pictures from Lenk's book please

?

I must admit, i am very thrilled with the idea of this lock beeing dated, so i might get carried away (the auction i bought it from didn't mention this and the picture did not show it either).

Thank you as always for your imput

Fernando K · 28th February 2014, 06:11 PM

Hello, Marcus

Just to note a feature: the frizzen has a steel plate welded with silver solder or copper base, for replacing a worn face, or construction. Mediterraneas Some locks have a removable face Dovetail and fixed by a screw. Also some Eastern copies.

I think the temperature required to make the weld removed tempered (tempering)

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)

Marcus den toom · 2nd March 2014, 09:40 PM

I have discovered a possible meaning for Burgunon!!
The area in France, called the Alsace-Lorraine, has always been a place where German and French people lived (and fought). This area is also near Burgundy, famous for the wine and good life.

The german name for Burgundy is Burgund, the French name is Bourguignon. Could the name Burgunond (on the flintlock), be a mixture between the two languages, meaning Burgundy?

Matchlock · 2nd March 2014, 11:53 PM

I think I should point out the (evident) fact that the flintlock cock of the combined mechanism of the French gun dated 1636, photographed in its half-cock position, clearly denotes a malfunction. In order to work correctly, it should lean more backwards.
Most probably the nose of the sear is missing.
m

Matchlock · 2nd March 2014, 11:56 PM

As to post #5:
I think I should point out the (evident) fact that the flintlock cock of the combined mechanism of the French gun dated 1636, photographed in its half-cock position, clearly denotes a malfunction. In order to work correctly, it should lean more backwards.
Most probably the nose of the sear is missing.
m

Matchlock · 3rd March 2014, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I have discovered a possible meaning for Burgunon!!
The area in France, called the Alsace-Lorraine, has always been a place where German and French people lived (and fought). This area is also near Burgundy, famous for the wine and good life.

The german name for Burgundy is Burgund, the French name is Bourguignon. Could the name Burgunond (on the flintlock), be a mixture between the two languages, meaning Burgundy?

Yeah, Marcus,

I was absolutely sure from the very beginning that it read 'Burgunon' for Burgundy.

m

fernando · 3rd March 2014, 02:42 PM

How about BURGUÑON ... Spanish for Bourguignon

.

Why not consider that arabesc as a tild accent

.

.

Marcus den toom · 3rd March 2014, 03:22 PM

A valid assumption Fernando

Burgundy had a Spanish duke during 31 July 1621 to 17 September 1665 (Phillip VIII).
Louis XIV became king only after 1643 so a Spanish name for Burgundy might very well be the case here.

thank you

28th February 2014, 02:04 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Dated flintlock mechanism A beautiful flintlock mechanism from G B L Burgunon and a possible date of 1636? The 3 is mirrored, which confuses me. The overall style of the lock is that of around 1640's so i doubt the possibility of the date beeing 1686. Also, there is no evidence of the lock beeing cleaned or rubbed. The numbering is as crisp as all the other engravings/lettering. The sear is missing and some screws are marred, other than this the lock is in very good condition. The pancover has been repaired in the old fashion. After so many shots, the pancover would be worn away at the striking point of the flint. The lock is 15,5 cm overall

28th February 2014, 02:56 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	As the maker is apparently unrecorded we can but speculate. My first guess concerning the date of manufacture would have been 'not before 1645', so why not read the date as 1656? This is more reasonble and would make your lock mechanism contemporary with my Schloss Dyck musket signed by Chiese, St. Etienne. m Attached Images

28th February 2014, 04:18 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Hi Michael, Thank you for this comparison . I was thinking about this possibility as well, but the line beneath the half circle is going askew to the left I also believe that the schloss Dyck lock is more recent than the Burgunon one. The hammer does have the same duck beak shape, but the burgunon one is more massive in the "head" section of the hammer, also the base is not rounded and larger than the schloss Dyck one As far as i can tell from the books i got, the hammer slowly evolved to the swan neck? The schloss Dyck lock seems to be further down this line than the burgunon one? Sadly, there is no forum member called Flintlock... seeing as Michael provided a very good overview of the matchlocks (matchlock chronicle). Last edited by Marcus den toom; 28th February 2014 at 04:56 PM.

3rd March 2014, 02:42 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How about BURGUÑON ... Spanish for Bourguignon . Why not consider that arabesc as a tild accent . . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 3rd March 2014 at 02:59 PM.

28th February 2014, 02:05 PM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Some more details

28th February 2014, 05:35 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, and you are right indeed, Marcus, But the ultimate work on flintlock weapons still is Dr. Torsten Lenk's Flintl°aset, dess uppkomst och utveckling from 1939. Sadly, the photos in the English edition The Flintlock - its Origin and Development in one volume are much worse than in the German 2-volume edition Steinschloss-Feuerwaffen, 1969. Lenk pictures some firearms with locks almost identical to your instance and assigns them to the 1640's for Paris (!), as I did at first. I once owned a heavy flintlock wallgun employing a very similar mechanism of ca. 1645: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...5+schloss+dyck m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 28th February 2014 at 07:39 PM.

28th February 2014, 05:48 PM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Could you scan a view of these pictures from Lenk's book please ? I must admit, i am very thrilled with the idea of this lock beeing dated, so i might get carried away (the auction i bought it from didn't mention this and the picture did not show it either). Thank you as always for your imput

28th February 2014, 06:11 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello, Marcus Just to note a feature: the frizzen has a steel plate welded with silver solder or copper base, for replacing a worn face, or construction. Mediterraneas Some locks have a removable face Dovetail and fixed by a screw. Also some Eastern copies. I think the temperature required to make the weld removed tempered (tempering) Affectionately. Fernando K (Sorry for the translator)

2nd March 2014, 09:40 PM	#8
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	I have discovered a possible meaning for Burgunon!! The area in France, called the Alsace-Lorraine, has always been a place where German and French people lived (and fought). This area is also near Burgundy, famous for the wine and good life. The german name for Burgundy is Burgund, the French name is Bourguignon. Could the name Burgunond (on the flintlock), be a mixture between the two languages, meaning Burgundy?

2nd March 2014, 11:53 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I think I should point out the (evident) fact that the flintlock cock of the combined mechanism of the French gun dated 1636, photographed in its half-cock position, clearly denotes a malfunction. In order to work correctly, it should lean more backwards. Most probably the nose of the sear is missing. m

2nd March 2014, 11:56 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	As to post #5: I think I should point out the (evident) fact that the flintlock cock of the combined mechanism of the French gun dated 1636, photographed in its half-cock position, clearly denotes a malfunction. In order to work correctly, it should lean more backwards. Most probably the nose of the sear is missing. m

3rd March 2014, 03:22 PM	#13
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	A valid assumption Fernando Burgundy had a Spanish duke during 31 July 1621 to 17 September 1665 (Phillip VIII). Louis XIV became king only after 1643 so a Spanish name for Burgundy might very well be the case here. thank you