Omani Sayf; markings for ID

[Iliad]

Hi all,
I have just acquired this Omani Sayf. I am intrigued by the markings and shall be grateful if someone can tell me what they mean.
regards to all, Brian

[Mark]

top right = running wolf?

Here is a thread (thought there was one with more variations of the mark, but I can't find it): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=running+wolf

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Mark

top right = running wolf?

Here is a thread (thought there was one with more variations of the mark, but I can't find it): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=running+wolf

Salaams ILIAD AND MARK~ Mark You are right that flailing mass of squigles is indeed our favourite woolf of Passau except it is a copy. The other marks I am looking at ...puzzled. The sword is perhaps the dancer...flexible blade?...long hilt...round tip...?The Omani Sayf from about the 18th C. for the Funoon... not a fighting sword. See thread on all such variants at "Kattara for comments". It normally has a shield with it ... The Terrs.

ILIAD ~ Can we see a full length blade please...? and is this blade fully flexible?
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iliad]

Hi all,
Thank you for the responses so far. I shall endeavour to add some more pics of the blade, but my photographic skills are limited.
The blade is stained and has slight pitting, but to my inexpert eye appears to have some age. The blade has some minor flexibility, but many swords have slightly flexible blades. The seller claimed that this sword was purchased in Oman by a diplomat who then brought it back to New Zealand.
I hope that this will help.
Brian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
Thank you for the responses so far. I shall endeavour to add some more pics of the blade, but my photographic skills are limited.
The blade is stained and has slight pitting, but to my inexpert eye appears to have some age. The blade has some minor flexibility, but many swords have slightly flexible blades. The seller claimed that this sword was purchased in Oman by a diplomat who then brought it back to New Zealand.
I hope that this will help.
Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ On the subject of what seems like a straight Omani Sayf.

The big thread on this issue is "Kattara for comments" which discusses the main Omani Sayf and Kattara details and origins. Your sword looks like the example at # 1 of that thread.
The markings so far identified are viz;

1. The Passau Woolf copy.
2. Square etching.
3. A zig zag form with rectangular geometry at each end.

The Passau Woolf is as discussed previously.
Square etching occurs on ancient pottery and on textles and wood carved doors dhows etc. I have seen this form on Omani Talisman silver wedding jewellery. It could represent the evil spirits which the silver talisman is protecting the wearer against.
Zig Zag As above and on Khanjar and Sword hilts.


Omani dancing swords tend to be flexible in the full bend through 90 degrees. They are broader than your example. It appears that they were designed into the Omani sphere at around the early 18th C. I believe that your example belongs with a family of weapons emanating in the Red Sea region(Saudia /Yemen and possibly with Ottoman/ Mamluki origins and related thus to Abbasiid and before that Greek. It appears that swords from the Red Sea region have been rehilted on long Omani hilts and given a new Omani Style Scabbard (Muscat is identified as a centre for such practise) and may have been suited up in other places possibly Yemen or Zanzibar. Though your hilt seems relatively fresh say 10 or 15 years old whereas the blade is much older pointing to a probable rework. Has the tang been lengthened and thus an Omani Pommel added ? If it has? therefor it becomes a hybrid. Your sword looks like it had a point and may have been somewhat rounded later..My suggestion is that this is a (Muttrah Souk) hybrid and because of the narrowness in the blade and its stiffness. The Omani straight Sayf dancing blade is very flexible. See on Forum Oman Morrocco or Zanzibar # 26 for a look at Buttins work illustrating about 6 straight blades which look related to yours.

Having said that please do not be put off since your style could be the blade type that, in fact, inspired the Omani Sayf dancing blade in the first place! After all, your sword is a weapon whereas the Omani Sayf dancing sword is not. Please see the discussion at Kattara for comments which is ploughing toward 9,000 hits.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions.

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos.

On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture.

The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation.

With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation.

I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts.

A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Brian, well done! nice contribution particularly well placed in view of the outstanding line of discussions that Ibrahiim has developed on these swords. Our understanding of the relationships with this distinct form which has long been regarded as the Omani 'kattara' by term, and other Omani swords of older form has been greatly enriched with these discussions.

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos.

On the markings, clearly these are locally applied and using an unskilled chiseled approach in an attempt to reproduce other known markings from other blades. The squares remind me of the bedouh, the talismanic squares sometimes seen on Islamic blades which contain auspicious or apotropaic numbers to imbue amuletic properties. This is of course simply a visual observation but Ibrahiim is far more familiar with these kinds of marks on Omani material culture.

The blocked device which seems to have majescule A and K may be copied from various makers marks on European blades, but have not travelled through the usual resources for comparison. Like many applications this may well be a composite interpretation.

With the image presumed to be the 'Passau Wolf', 'flailing lines' is a perfect description of these profoundly interpretive devices. This stylized zoomorphic wolf has of course always been applied with varying degree of similarity, even as used in Europe. The purpose insinuating quality has of course been long presumed, however its adoption in application in other cultural spheres and being widely copied has considerably broadened the possibilities in meaningful interpretation.

I have often wondered if these nearly indiscernable renderings of these already loosely interpreted 'wolf' figures applied in Islamic settings as in this case might have been deliberately 'widened' for reasons more theosophical. With concerns not only toward portrayal of living things, it has been my understanding that canines often have negative connotations.I am wondering if perhaps these marks might have been applied with just enought recognition to allude to quality marks, but enough ambiguity to comply with those concepts.

A great example Brian!!! Thank you for posting, and nice acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ What more can we say?! That about nails it Jim ! On the final paragraph I would add that woolf skin applied wrapped arround the butt of Abu Futtila (The one with the Match or Father of the Match) or Roomi(Long Leaf) long guns was said to give strength and ward off any bad luck for the firer. Woolf therefor carries not a negative but a positive and talismanic effect on weapons / their owners.
The talisman boxed criss cross marks are perfectly described in your post. The sword is clearly Red Sea and as you note its European origins and likely switch hilted and hybridised as Omani and sold to a tourist in Muscat souk more likely....and my money is on the same store I was in (they have had a prolific number of swords through their workshops over 2 generations~ this looks like their work )! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim ~ What more can we say?! That about nails it Jim ! On the final paragraph I would add that woolf skin applied wrapped arround the butt of Abu Futtila (The one with the Match or Father of the Match) or Roomi(Long Leaf) long guns was said to give strength and ward off any bad luck for the firer. Woolf therefor carries not a negative but a positive and talismanic effect on weapons / their owners.
The talisman boxed criss cross marks are perfectly described in your post. The sword is clearly Red Sea and as you note its European origins and likely switch hilted and hybridised as Omani and sold to a tourist in Muscat souk more likely....and my money is on the same store I was in (they have had a prolific number of swords through their workshops over 2 generations~ this looks like their work )! Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you very much Ibrahiim! That is great information regarding the perspective on the wolf as a talismanic totem, and better explains the favor toward the Passau wolf representation being used. Interestingly this had become the same purpose for its application on European sword blades, as one of the key elements of 'Passau Art'. It would seem that my observation on the negative characterization of dogs would clearly not include the wolf, and entirely different interpretations. The graphed 'beduh' boxes which typically enclosed talismanic numbers as you note were widely applied in material culture .

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. Unquote
Jim[/COLOR]

Salaams Jim ~ In reference to your reply above in blue which is part of your post at # 5 on this thread.

Firstly; I believe that this is a modified blade to hilt done deliberately to move the weapon through a shop in Muscat. It therefor accidentally becomes a tourist weapon. I say accidentally because initially it was a weapon... from a Red Sea variant (possibly a cousin) It could be either originally a European blade or derived from the Ottoman, Saudia, Yemen or Algerian as an original or copied.

Secondly; the blade is not the 90 degree bendable dancing blade and as such would never be selected for this task. Its blade just will not buzz. It would be rejected immediately by any Omani looking to obtain a Sayf... It is the first vital test... Flexibility... this one would snap ! The hilt and scabbard are clearly more recent additions. This work is typical of the Muscat alteration workshops doing such work over the last few generations and to the unsuspecting eye (tourist) this looks like a good deal. I know that having spoken to the workshops owner in Muscat that this is typical and a way of selling what he could otherwise not move... By masquerading as an Omani sword this one went south... on this occasion courtesy of a diplomat apparently.

Ironically the blade probably was a weapon in its day (unlike the dancing sword which are and never were weapons) but certainly not with that hilt (and scabbard). I agree, however, that the dance "mimic fight" routine "alyalaah" in the Razha section of The Funoon is some sort of combat warm up perhaps honorary in respect of the Old Omani Battle Sword. The original Omani Sayf.

The situation regarding the flat spatulate end on Sayf dancing swords needs some focus since the sword pictured here doesn't or rather didn't have a rounded tip (well it does now because the Muscat workshop filed it round) It was originally pointed. The reason for the rounded tip on the Omani Dancing Sword is so that some safety can be achieved whilst scoring against the oponent in the mimic contest and anyway it would be pointless on such a flexible blade ~ There is only one way to score~ by touching with the flat round spatulate tip your oponents thumb ( I believe on the shield hand) For show there is a lot of blocking and parry but its not a fight per se.
Thanks again for your input Yaa Ustad !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

[Iliad]

Gentlemen,
Thank you to you all for such interesting and informative responses to my posting. I appreciate the time taken by each one of you and I am now much better informed than I was! So much to learn!
Best regards as always
Brian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

Salaams A.alnakkas . Al Badawi swords. I assume you mean curved or straight with quillons and a battle blade...sharp edge and point ? I agree they are for fighting.(and for parading and dancing but this is a different weapon altogether from the Omani Sayf) I think it is a different case entirely from the dancing Omani straight Sayf which is not for fighting though it is tempting to suggest that this is a slashing weapon ... It is not. It is not a weapon. It is for dancing and mimic fights only. Your Quote I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.Unquote.. On thread and on Kattara for comments there are something in excess of 250 posts; many explaining the theory ...which you may wish to review. I dont think I have down graded Bedawi swords to dancing only... Checking now...and I can confirm that I havent said that... maybe you misread something ??
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ You are completely wrong.

The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !

The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...

The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!

No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.

There are no straight Omani dancing Sayf swords with which to fight...NONE! What does exist in the form of previous fighting blades are a variety of red sea (and associated European ) rehilted steels on Omani hilts and Scabbards... These are mainly tourist weapons. Some have become Icons.

What does happen more as an ad hoc nature of celebratory dance is that whatever weapon is to hand gets used to waive and dance with and that can and does include rifles, swords(of all natures), daggers and if none are available even camel sticks...and indeed there are speciality dances just for camel sticks... and in Southern Oman; a non-contact dance just for Khanjars. Common sense prevails as to if a sword is or is not viable as a weapon.

In the UAE if a Terrs shield cannot be found with which to do the Mimic Fight (alyaalah!) they simply use a sandal instead of the shield...Mimic Fighting is purely symbolic though carries the added excitement of having a scoring system of the "one point winner" by touching the oponents thumb with the spatulate tip.

What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.

In the case of Shamshir, Nimcha, Shashqa, Zanzibari, Hyderabadi and other Iconic Omani Swords (many quite similar to Bedawi in structure) these can indeed be classed as weapons, however, they are Icons; marks of "Badge of Office" not for going off to battle, though, no doubt they could cause serious harm in a fight... In the case of ships swords(shasqa and nimcha etc) remounted on hawkshead hilts I have pointed out that they were viable on board style cutlass equivalents. All this is is indicated on in this thread and Kattara for comments should you wish to research.

Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...


The Omani dancing Sword is not, nor was it ever, a weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

The purpose of this thread by ILLIAD was, if I am not mistaken, posted to extract comment about his Sayf, and to try and identify the marks on the blade. I am sure that if he wanted to find out about "dancing swords" he would have read the ongoing post "Kattara For Comment".
I am sure that ILLIAD and others, myself included, would like to find out more regarding the marks on his sword blade.
I find it a great pity, and very frustrating, that this practice of what I choose to call "Thread Hijacking" is becoming a regular occurance.
If I wish to use the SEARCH facility to gleen information on a particular topic, I find it most annoying that the subject changes on to something entirely different.

Regards

[David]

Please relax and breathe gentlemen.
While thread "hijacking" can be considered a problem, thread topics are likely to wander some, especially if the original info sought is simply unavailable. Anyone at anytime is welcome to bring this thread back to topic if the information about the markings on this blade is available to them. If so, please share. There is, however, no hard rule about staying strictly on topic in a thread, though one would expect the tangent information to still connect to the original post in some manner.
As for the discussion at hand, i would suggest that one refrain from argumentative comments such as "You are completely WRONG" and the like. These kinds of comments are always counter-productive to constructive discussion. Now play nice...

[A.alnakkas]

To Illiad,

I think you have a proper sword in your hand. The blade is old and the fittings are not made yesterday. Keep in mind that most swords get rehilted all the time.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread has been highly informative, and actually is well placed as I earlier noted as it is moving in concert with the extremely productive 'kattara' thread which is running concurrently. I would like to note that as David has said, threads to tend to wander, especially in the case of those where actual discussion is taking place. It is important to remember that in the study of these weapons, the scope of investigation can often expand over a wide range of subjects. The original question concerned the markings on what we know is an Omani sa'if, commonly termed 'kattara' and what they meant.

The inclusion of the now well dimensioned investigation on these swords, as well as thier use and history is distinctly pertinant in looking into these markings, the subject of which is my own favored field of study. While I had included my own observations on the markings, it is important to consider that the intended use of the sword, and the possibility of it being one of the examples used in pageantry vs. actual combat is indeed important. The idea of this is obviously, certain markings or character in motif or features do often offer certain demeanor to the sword itself.

The term demeanor brings to mind another topic, which here clearly deviates from my comments thus far toward the sword itself and its discussion, but goes to the character of my post here. This concerns the use of certain wording in discussions, specifically assertions of whether an opposing view is 'right' or 'wrong'. Obviously in discussions, there may be a number of views concerning the subject at hand, and the idea of these views being presented is so all concerned may evaluate and process all the information. In many cases, supporting evidence may be compelling enough to change the views of others, possibly all. This is considered constructive analysis, and to the benefit of all involved.

It is best to observe anothers view if contrary to that held personally, by wording such as 'I understand this differently', rather than use of terms which are perceived negatively such as 'wrong'. I am not saying it is 'wrong' to word this way, just that I see it differently

I dont necessarily agree with all of the views presented here, but I will say I have learned a lot, and wanted to thank everyone who has participated in these threads for outstanding discourse thus far. Lets keep the discussions going, and if things get perceivably 'off course' I think those participating are quite capable of bringing the original topic back into focus without direct challenge.

Thanks very much guys,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead' becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead'**(see notes) becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your excellent summary, professionally researched and written as always ~(as I hope are my posts) ~ with high Forum standards of historical correctness and detail and as a beacon for others to steer by. I shall try to choose better descriptive words in future in conveying the meaning of a reply which is 180 degrees in the opposite direction since perhaps I may not have quite put my case in as crystal clear terms as I had thought. Naturally the somewhat misleading reference by others to people kidnapping the thread is as pointed out by previous moderator staff not the case. We place comments on Forum for Forum research purposes and serious discussion only and in doing so hope to shine a light on vague topics and perhaps attract (as a biproduct) some of the onlookers by our professionalism.

Your post is, indeed, inspiring.

References. I refer to the main reference which is this Forums Kattara for comments In addition I must refer to two other references which are the National Museum of Oman and the publication The Craft Herritage of Oman which is a national herritage documentation project. Both references confirm the pageantry only aspect of the Straight Sayf flexible dancing sword and that it was not used for fighting despite its apparent warlike mimic role in the Funoon. Clearer than that I cannot be. At this time therefor the defence rests..However I further add ~

It may be born in mind that I have been amongst the dancers asking the important question... Is this a fighting sword...? Did anyone you know ever fight with this sword in the past, in history, in your family before or in any battle that you know of modern or ancient? Answers varied between outright hilarity and puzzled looks and "Are you mad"? "Dont be stupid" to the more sensible retort ... "No its only for dancing."

The dancing Sayf indeed looks vicious and the dance routines look warlike. The sword looks like it could chop an arm off as stated by historical notes by witnesses at Katara for comments # 164. However they were duped by appearances.. wrongfooted by its seemingly warlike surroundings and tricked, perhaps, like many today into thinking that this was a weapon. That is not to say that it is incapable of causing damage (so is a table leg but its not a club weapon per se)

It may well look like, and be related in design to, an African weapon and may have tantalizing similarities to even a European ancient sword and appear to have a round tip reminicent of such potential cousins. It could have copied to some extent the Saudi Yemeni longhilted broadsword that came to the Red Sea area via the Ottoman and before that Mamluke Abbasid and Greek... It probably did. It is, however, only related as a weapon to the Red Sea in that the entire thing as a weapon is, in fact, A Red Herring ! This is a dancing pageantry sword only.

The Omani Sayf flexible dancing sword which may have arrived on or about the Busaidi Dynasty start date in 1744 is not a fighting weapon but a pageantry accoutrement though it may have inspired the hilt and scabbard to be placed onto curved Kattara blades thus they (The curved Kattara)became Icons along with other variant or Hybrid styles ( Nimcha, Shashqa, Shamshir etc). Some of these became working ships weapons often in the Hawkshead design * (see notes)

The true fighting Omani Blade remained the Old Omani Battle Sword or "Sayf Yamani" though by then (late 18th C/ mid 19thC aprox) swords were on their way out as gunpowder was preferred and in Oman the battles were mainly between ships with great use of Cannon. (and Forts) Great store was invested in Iconic swords and eventually the same happened to the old Omani Battle Sword as it too succumbed to badge of Office status. It does not appear that the straight dancing sayf became Iconised though today it is often used as a gift item to visitors. Zanzibari and Muscat Sultans can be seen on the Kattara for comments thread in full regalia with various swords .

Two full generations**(see notes) of Muscat Souk workshops "prolific" matching of various swords from Yemen and Saudia have occured and at any one time 300 such weapons can be found in a souk area of a few hundred square metres. Refitting a hilt takes a few minutes to a trained craftsman and swords refitted there go straight onto the vibrant tourist market. Included is tang extension and pommel re hilting with the omani long hilt and scabbard making. Blades that I have witnessed as rematched include Solingen, Saudia, Yemeni and Ethiopian blades. On one occasion two Indian Tulvar hilts placed on Ethiopian blades looking to the inexperienced eye as very mediaeval indeed. Thus the tourist swords were launched.

Only by writing down the facts in comprehensive documentary order and where possible with detailed proof can the full discussion be examined at times on the hot anvil of forum posts. Vital documentary proof often sits un noticed on Forum Library yet this is routinely ignored and by people who for whatever reason simply wish to make a splash. Irrational outbursts, nonsensical throw away one liners and unsubstantiated, empty rhetoric are of course, not of this house.

Many thanks Jim for your excellent posts, constructive comments and support.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note1; Hawkshead* is a term "solely applied by me" to describe that Hilt Shape which appears to have Ottoman and etc etc ancestry also called Karabella etc.

Note 2. Something that people may not realise that when I say two generations of souk operations in the text** I mean back to 1970 essentially when Oman began to be openened to the outside world. Therefor from 1970 not before... this predicament did not occur before then. Hybridising weapons in Muscat did not happen before that date !

3. Some hypothesis is applied by me in terms of the spike on the pommel of the old Omani Battle Sword. The Sayf Yamaani. This is a double edged pointed weapon with quillons. It has all the characteristics already outlined and being a short blade I assume the close in work included the possibility of a facial attack using the spiked pommel. The opposing weapon was Abbasid and did not have a spike. Perhaps this is only a pommel with the honorific Islamic Arch design and that the pommel spike was not used as a close in concept weapon... Having done several years of sword, spear and martial arts perhaps my assessment is incorrect however that was the reason I made the assumption; The Pommel Spike eye strike...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
I have just acquired this Omani Sayf. I am intrigued by the markings and shall be grateful if someone can tell me what they mean.
regards to all, Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ I found this talismanic stamp in a web document I was researching at.. http://www.roohanimadad.com/apps/blo...ies-and-safety which illustrates stacked numbers inside a grid similar to the swords grid style stamp...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
I have just acquired this Omani Sayf. I am intrigued by the markings and shall be grateful if someone can tell me what they mean.
regards to all, Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ The lower picture marks on the blade look like an owners mark. It reminds me of the owners marks on camels... Whereas the rectangled geometrics are talsimanic the lower one is an owners mark I suggest.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
I have just acquired this Omani Sayf. I am intrigued by the markings and shall be grateful if someone can tell me what they mean.
regards to all, Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ I hope you dont mind ~I am about to refer the decoration zig zag on this sword across to the European Forum on the subject of Spanish Rapiers by fernando as it is similar mark to the thread study going on there.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.