What do I have?

[grendolino]

Dear Gentlemen.
I have bought a bunch of blades which seems to be the remnants of some oldish collection.
Could you help me with identification and link them with the place of origin - as far as it is possible?

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm really more than a little surprised that nobody has jumped in and responded to these questions. I noted the thread probably within a couple of hours of it appearing and deliberately withheld comment because I thought there would be a flood of responses.

I've waited long enough, now everybody can jump in & tell me I'm wrong

1) I don't know, might be Peninsula or Lombok, or some other place that is far from core keris culture; I think I'll just take the Javanese line:- "diluar Jowo" --- which to a Javanese keris fancier means "well, its not Javanese, so it really doesn't matter much what it is". Pretty exclusivist point of view, but that's the way it is.

2) Bugis; if I say "Bugis" I am not necessarily saying that it comes from Sulawesi, the form is --- or at least appears to be in the foto --- Bugis with flat blade faces --- it could be from anywhere that the Bugis blade form was found.

3) As for #2

4) Probably Javanese, probably West Jawa

5) Javanese influenced, but from Jawa? I don't know.

6) Bugis influence, but probably Peninsula; close examination of the hilt might narrow it down a bit --- someone else can do this, I don't have time

7) Maduro

8) I would need to handle these to be able to support an opinion.

[Jean]

Blade N° 1 with 15 luk is very thick & wide and has a clear ada-ada, deep kruwingan, and flattened pesi. It reminds me of the 16th or 17th century blades from Banten or Blambangan although it is rather rustic.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm really more than a little surprised that nobody has jumped in and responded to these questions. I noted the thread probably within a couple of hours of it appearing and deliberately withheld comment because I thought there would be a flood of responses.

I was thinking pretty much along the same line Alan, but i think the problem here is one of too many items presented for opinion at the same time. I think posting one keris at a time for feedback is always best unless there is a certain connection between multiple blades offered for discussion.

[grendolino]

Thank you very much for your responses. Would it be better to start new thread for any item. Maeby give some more details? Dimensions.
I am pretty much concerned about the first one as it is trick and robust so much I had never seen before

[A. G. Maisey]

I can understand the bulk offering David.

I doubt that Grendolino is looking for a discussion of his items, from what he has written I'd take him as a general collector who has stumbled upon a few pretty ordinary old keris and all he wants to do is catalogue them.

What I did not understand was the lack of response. Maybe everybody who looked at the thread thought the same as I did.

Jean, i have a few of these older Banten keris, and I've handled even more. Generally speaking these are very class keris. The detail work on this keris #1 is not in the same street, and the way in which the luk are arranged does in my opinion move this keris decidedly into second or third string. I cannot see even a whisp of Blambangan in it.

I think that if somebody pointed a gun at my head and forced me to make a choice I'd probably give it as Peninsula, but Lombok looks pretty viable too.

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can understand the bulk offering David.

I doubt that Grendolino is looking for a discussion of his items, from what he has written I'd take him as a general collector who has stumbled upon a few pretty ordinary old keris and all he wants to do is catalogue them.

What I did not understand was the lack of response. Maybe everybody who looked at the thread thought the same as I did.

Jean, i have a few of these older Banten keris, and I've handled even more. Generally speaking these are very class keris. The detail work on this keris #1 is not in the same street, and the way in which the luk are arranged does in my opinion move this keris decidedly into second or third string. I cannot see even a whisp of Blambangan in it.

I think that if somebody pointed a gun at my head and forced me to make a choice I'd probably give it as Peninsula, but Lombok looks pretty viable too.

Sorry to say i am not able to start to discuss with the experts in the field. What I wanted was to know what those blade are, how ordynarne or complex they are and try to imagine how they would Look in their complete form not mention that it would be wonderfull to restorevthem to their previous glory

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can understand the bulk offering David.

I doubt that Grendolino is looking for a discussion of his items, from what he has written I'd take him as a general collector who has stumbled upon a few pretty ordinary old keris and all he wants to do is catalogue them.

What I did not understand was the lack of response. Maybe everybody who looked at the thread thought the same as I did.

Well Alan, my response was an attempt to explain the lack of response and nothing more. I will not make any assumptions about what Grendolino might be looking for in terms of feedback, but i do know that when i see a post with more than a half dozen unrelated keris all lined up looking to be categorized i tend to take a pass. Especially if no real searching questions have been asked. I think others might feel the same way. Grendolino may or may not be looking for a discussion, but discussion is what i come here for, not simply to place a bunch of keris in their appropriate boxes. I also think many of us have seen similar posts in the past that are merely attempts to gather a few name categories in order to resell keris they have recently stumbled upon. Again, i do not assume that is Grendolino's game here, just trying to explain why fellow keris collectors may have decided not to respond here.
That said i would say that #6 would really be quite a nice keris if given a bit of attention and renovation. I do not believe it is Peninsula though. My thought is more likely somewhere in Sumatra.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, understood David, but really, I don't pass on too many questions if I have a halfway OK response, and someone else has not got there first. I don't care what Grendolino wants out of his post, he asked a question, it is easily answered so why not respond?

Anyway, #6, yeah looks like it could come up pretty nice.

Frankly, to me, the important thing is the Bugis influence, in Jawa this would simply be "Bugis", no matter where it might have been made. I voted for Peninsula because I think I've seen more manipulated pamors from there than other places, but really, the hilt could push me in a different direction.

[grendolino]

Sorry to start the thread in that manner that it merely Goes around the conduct and treat me as an object instead of the kerisses i post.
No I dont want to resell them, i bought them because they seemed to me better ones than the rest i Had seen in my country available so far and because when i see such homeless ethnographic objects from the world Rich in meaning i simply regret their fate and try to Save them from the indolents who form the legion of buyers.
So, being the humble reader of those forum i tend for the opinion of experts simply not posing as one who knows much.
This is how discussion start in my opinion: there is an object and they
Are the People who know something to share for the collective wisdom sake.
So far so good. Thanks to you i Know something about those blade
So: thank you.

[Athanase]

Overall I have the same opinion as the others for the origins.

1: The size looks large which might make you think of the ancient Java Kriss from the 17th century or Lombok or Bali, but the blade carving seems too coarse to me. I find in fact that it can have a Peninsula side and also reminds some aspects of the oldest blades of Kriss Moro.
Either it is an old Javanese or Balinese blade whose sculpture was originally finer, but the sculpture was dulled by poor maintenance in the long term (derusting with a file which dulled the ridges?) .

2 and 3: Bugis blade

4: Java

5: I would think of Sumatra as the greneng is really seems crudely carved, it would have been better carved on a Javanese blade.

6: very beautiful Bugis blade, The scabbard reminds me of either Sumatra or the Malay Peninsula.

7: Madura (nice dress).

8: the wood is from Java (I think East Java)
the metal is from Sumatra.

[David]

Originally Posted by grendolino

Sorry to start the thread in that manner that it merely Goes around the conduct and treat me as an object instead of the kerisses i post.
No I dont want to resell them, i bought them because they seemed to me better ones than the rest i Had seen in my country available so far and because when i see such homeless ethnographic objects from the world Rich in meaning i simply regret their fate and try to Save them from the indolents who form the legion of buyers.
So, being the humble reader of those forum i tend for the opinion of experts simply not posing as one who knows much.
This is how discussion start in my opinion: there is an object and they
Are the People who know something to share for the collective wisdom sake.
So far so good. Thanks to you i Know something about those blade
So: thank you.

My apologies if you felt you were being treated like an object. My posts were simply to explain to Alan why i thought no one immediately posted responses. You certainly didn't do anything incorrectly with your post. My suggestion that posting singular items rather than dropping an entire lot in a single post for assessment was just that, a suggestion. And i believe i was clear when i mentioned people who post looking for info to resell that i was not assuming that was your intention. So please don't take offense.
Thanks for saving these from the indolent legions. Frankly, if this is your entry point into the world of keris you probably did much better with this lot than most beginner keris collectors.

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by David

My apologies if you felt you were being treated like an object. My posts were simply to explain to Alan why i thought no one immediately posted responses. You certainly didn't do anything incorrectly with your post. My suggestion that posting singular items rather than dropping an entire lot in a single post for assessment was just that, a suggestion. And i believe i was clear when i mentioned people who post looking for info to resell that i was not assuming that was your intention. So please don't take offense.
Thanks for saving these from the indolent legions. Frankly, if this is your entry point into the world of keris you probably did much better with this lot than most beginner keris collectors.

Thank you. Much appreciate this post and with Deep relief.

[grendolino]

As I see the first one is controversial most I propose to continue solely on it.
It is 38 cm long with 5cm puting. Ganja is 9 cm wide and 1.3 thick in thickest point. Blade is sharp on both edges. Pamor is hardly visible but present and lis/edges, are plain as, sorry for comparison, on chinese or Viking swords so gusin is clear. From the point where grooves (srawingan?) Ends the section is symmetrical and romboid.
Overall shape almost exactly match the Balinese one which I have, but is thicker.
Steel seems to be the good one and almost no rusty comparing to the rest- i did not touch them so far.
Overall shape, proportions and manufacture is for me attractive and to be honest it was this one which attract me to but the bunch.
I try to attach some macro photos when I catch the time.

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Overall I have the same opinion as the others for the origins.

1: The size looks large which might make you think of the ancient Java Kriss from the 17th century or Lombok or Bali, but the blade carving seems too coarse to me. I find in fact that it can have a Peninsula side and also reminds some aspects of the oldest blades of Kriss Moro.
Either it is an old Javanese or Balinese blade whose sculpture was originally finer, but the sculpture was dulled by poor maintenance in the long term (derusting with a file which dulled the ridges?) .

2 and 3: Bugis blade

4: Java

5: I would think of Sumatra as the greneng is really seems crudely carved, it would have been better carved on a Javanese blade.

6: very beautiful Bugis blade, The scabbard reminds me of either Sumatra or the Malay Peninsula.

7: Madura (nice dress).

8: the wood is from Java (I think East Java)
the metal is from Sumatra.

Thank you.
No file signs on the first one.
Metal sarong is silver. Tested

[Jean]

Please show us the sarong and hilt if you have them as it may clarify the origin of this kris.

[Athanase]

Originally Posted by Jean

Please show us the sarong and hilt if you have them as it may clarify the origin of this kris.

I think that Grendolino tell of silver gandar n°8 wich not match with the first keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by grendolino

As I see the first one is controversial most I propose to continue solely on it.
It is 38 cm long with 5cm puting. Ganja is 9 cm wide and 1.3 thick in thickest point. Blade is sharp on both edges. Pamor is hardly visible but present and lis/edges, are plain as, sorry for comparison, on chinese or Viking swords so gusin is clear. From the point where grooves (srawingan?) Ends the section is symmetrical and romboid.
Overall shape almost exactly match the Balinese one which I have, but is thicker.
Steel seems to be the good one and almost no rusty comparing to the rest- i did not touch them so far.
Overall shape, proportions and manufacture is for me attractive and to be honest it was this one which attract me to but the bunch.
I try to attach some macro photos when I catch the time.

Well, i see that both #1 and #6 seem to have some mixed reactions. Frankly i don't believe either of these are Peninsula blades. My gut feeling on #1 would be Alan's second choice, Lombok. It is a bit on the short side for blades from this area, but Lombok often presents examples that don't quite fit into normal pigeonholes.
On #6 i would look to Sumatra as i stated previously. It is Bugis, but the Bugis people were everywhere throughout the archipelago. As Alan suggested, better images of the hilt might help pin this down.
The metal piece in #8 is not a sarong, it is a pendok. It may still have the gandar (sheath stem) inside it though. I agree those who placed this in Sumatra. The motifs seem to confirm that.

[A. G. Maisey]

In respect of the pendok motif.

I have seen this motif and this pendok design on a number of keris that people who have vastly more knowledge of Bugis-type keris than I do have classified as "Sulawesi Selatan".

If I had this pendok in hand and could closely examine construction & workmanship, I might be able to give a supportable opinion on origin, but as is often the case, I have a lot of problems with trying to be too definite from what I think I can see in photographs.

The gandar also is totally impossible for me to place accurately from a photograph, and probably I would not even want to give a definite opinion even with it in my hand.

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by Athanase

I think that Grendolino tell of silver gandar n°8 wich not match with the first keris.

Yes. I did.
I have showno everything I have

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the pendok motif.

I have seen this motif and this pendok design on a number of keris that people who have vastly more knowledge of Bugis-type keris than I do have classified as "Sulawesi Selatan".

If I had this pendok in hand and could closely examine construction & workmanship, I might be able to give a supportable opinion on origin, but as is often the case, I have a lot of problems with trying to be too definite from what I think I can see in photographs.

Well, i wouldn't argue with you on this. I've always found the differences between Sulawesi Bugis and Sumatra Bugis difficult to determine, so you may well be correct on this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Not my call David, I cannot tell Bugis style keris nor dress from one place from Bugis style keris or dress from any other place.

I have seen some copies of Bugis dress made in Bali, made in Surabaya, and made somewhere else in Jawa. It looks the same as the real deal but there are minor differences in construction

However, Ahmad Ubbe, Andi Irwan Zulfikar & Dray Vibrianto Senewe are respected collectors of Bugis edged weapons, they authored "Senjata Pusaka Bugis". In this book they attribute keris with pendok having the same and comparable motifs to the one being discussed here to South Sulawesi.

In fact, in this book, keris that I would place squarely in the Peninsula or in the Eastern Islands are attributed to South Sulawesi. I do not have a particularly high regard for Bugis keris, they do not directly relate to my specific area of enquiry, thus over the years I have not paid much attention to them. I'm afraid that long contact with Central Javanese attitudes has had some effect upon my own ideas.

So I am not claiming that this pendok is from South Sulawesi, I am only advising that the joint opinion of three experienced, specialist Bugis collectors classify pendoks with motifs like this one as being of South Sulawesi origin.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Athanase

I think that Grendolino tell of silver gandar n°8 wich not match with the first keris.

You are right, sorry for the confusion!

[Jean]

The long gandar shown on pic N° 8 is from NW Java IMO.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, i have a few of these older Banten keris, and I've handled even more. Generally speaking these are very class keris. The detail work on this keris #1 is not in the same street, and the way in which the luk are arranged does in my opinion move this keris decidedly into second or third string. I cannot see even a whisp of Blambangan in it.

I think that if somebody pointed a gun at my head and forced me to make a choice I'd probably give it as Peninsula, but Lombok looks pretty viable too.

Hello Alan,
Regarding the possible Lombok origin, I have carefully reviewed the book "Keris di Lombok" by Lalu Djelenga (which shows a lot of krisses) and found only one blade vaguely similar to keris N° 1 from Grendolino, but with a more slender shape (see pic).
Any way the craftsmanship of this blade is quite poor so it is not worth much discussion indeed.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Not my call David, I cannot tell Bugis style keris nor dress from one place from Bugis style keris or dress from any other place.

I have seen some copies of Bugis dress made in Bali, made in Surabaya, and made somewhere else in Jawa. It looks the same as the real deal but there are minor differences in construction

However, Ahmad Ubbe, Andi Irwan Zulfikar & Dray Vibrianto Senewe are respected collectors of Bugis edged weapons, they authored "Senjata Pusaka Bugis". In this book they attribute keris with pendok having the same and comparable motifs to the one being discussed here to South Sulawesi.

In fact, in this book, keris that I would place squarely in the Peninsula or in the Eastern Islands are attributed to South Sulawesi. I do not have a particularly high regard for Bugis keris, they do not directly relate to my specific area of enquiry, thus over the years I have not paid much attention to them. I'm afraid that long contact with Central Javanese attitudes has had some effect upon my own ideas.

So I am not claiming that this pendok is from South Sulawesi, I am only advising that the joint opinion of three experienced, specialist Bugis collectors classify pendoks with motifs like this one as being of South Sulawesi origin.

Well Alan, this Minangkabau keris crossed my screen this morning, posted by a friend on another forum. I don't see much chance that this keris had a Sulawesi pendok added to it later. The entire ensemble looks pretty original to me and clearly from Sumatra. So i think i might have to dismiss your Sulawesi experts on this one.

[Jean]

Hello David,
I tend to agree with you based on the size and motifs of the pendok. I carefully looked at the Bugis kris book in question and did not notice any old pendok similar to the one shown by Grendolino, and from my experience many old Bugis pendoks from Sulawesi are imitating rattan in the lower part.
See my Minang kris for reference.

[Athanase]

I agree with David.
I have 2 small sumatran Keris (one Minang) and 1 Sundanese (or south sumatran) Badek with the same motif on silver (or mamas) which covers the sheath.

[A. G. Maisey]

This post only deals with the metal pendok in Grendolino's photo #8.

It might seem a bit silly to focus on something as insignificant as this one humble little beat up pendok, however, the attention it has drawn and the remarks associated with it indicates to me that I should comment just a little more on than I did with my original "don't know" comment.

I am not pushing any barrow here, I am only going try to provide a little bit of insight into the reason for my original comment, and that original comment still holds good as far as I am concerned.

In post #2 I wrote this:-

"8) I would need to handle these to be able to support an opinion."

after some comments by other people I wrote this in post #19 :-

"In respect of the pendok motif.

I have seen this motif and this pendok design on a number of keris that people who have vastly more knowledge of Bugis-type keris than I do have classified as "Sulawesi Selatan".

If I had this pendok in hand and could closely examine construction & workmanship, I might be able to give a supportable opinion on origin, but as is often the case, I have a lot of problems with trying to be too definite from what I think I can see in photographs."

Then in post #22, I wrote this:-

"--- I have seen some copies of Bugis dress made in Bali, made in Surabaya, and made somewhere else in Jawa. It looks the same as the real deal but there are minor differences in construction

However, Ahmad Ubbe, Andi Irwan Zulfikar & Dray Vibrianto Senewe are respected collectors of Bugis edged weapons, they authored "Senjata Pusaka Bugis". In this book they attribute keris with pendok having the same and comparable motifs to the one being discussed here to South Sulawesi.---"

Following this post #22, David & Jean & Athanese all posted photos of keris that they identified as Minangkabau.

So there seems to be at least a degree of belief that the pendok in photo #8 is from Sumatera, and probably from Minangkabau. I have no problem with this, much of our so-called keris "knowledge" is in fact keris belief. These beliefs can be both indigenous beliefs and beliefs that come from outside the culture & society of origin of the keris. But beliefs do tend to become somewhat eroded when subjected to close objective examination, and this applies not only to beliefs related to the keris, but to virtually all beliefs. Samuel Arbesman.

To focus on the pendok shown in photo #8:- this pendok has been made in one piece, on a mandrel, it is impossible to know the form of the buntut, the only identifiers we have are the motif and possibly the lis, but I am not able to discern if that lis is straight or curved, and even if I could I am not sure that the form could be used as an identifier. Construction can be an identifier, but from the photo we cannot possibly see much about construction except that it is one piece made on a mandrel.

The scabbards of all the complete keris that have been shown differ, are they all Minangkabau? All Sumatera? Personally, I do not know. I have done no field research at all in Sumatera, I have never been anywhere near Minangkabau country, I do know a couple of people from Minangkabau, but I would prefer to leave their comments relevant to Minangkabau keris out of this conversation. I do not know of any truly authoritative work in print on Minangkabau keris, nor for that matter on keris in general from Sumatera.

What we are left with upon which to base a point of origin is only the motif on a damaged pendok. So let us look at the motif.

The motif on Athanese's silver pendok is a composite motif, it consists of a top panel that falls into the Javanese lung-lungan family, this top panel has an inner tumpul pattern border and an outer border that in the photo appears to be classifiable as a meander pattern, the motif in the lower panel falls into the parang family of motifs; probably everybody with a keris interest has heard of the "parang rusak" motif, collectors who are outside of core Javanese culture normally understand "parang rusak" as "damaged parang" the word "parang" taken as "sword", so "damaged sword". However, in the context of this art motif, "parang" means "cliff", "rusak" is "damaged" and there is a philosophical meaning in Javanese culture for the idea of a damaged cliff. The Parang Rusak motif is in fact a motif with royal connotations.

The Parang family of motifs is normally displayed in a rectangular field, commonly as motif for a sarung, this family of motifs numbers probably into the hundreds.

When this motif is used as part of a composite motif, as is often the case in North Coast batik motifs, we find that the individual motifs are not named, but the composite motif that might contain, say, three motifs is named as a "tri negari" motif, literally, "three countries", each motif being euphemistically referred to as a "country".

The face of a pendok provides a roughly rectangular field, so the use of this not uncommon art motif as a motif for a pendok should not surprise.

However, this composite motif is one that seldom appears on pendoks in Central Jawa. Lung-lungan motifs are common, parang motifs are not unknown, but the North Coast Tri Negari motif is to my knowledge not used on pendok in Central Jawa.

Art motifs in the Malay Archipelago and Peninsula are widely spread, I belief that most of these motifs have their roots in Javanese culture, and that is perfectly understandable, because for more than 1000 years, Javanese culture has been the dominant culture in South East Asia, and has exported its products into every corner of South East Asia, and beyond. So a motif by itself can rarely be used as an identifier for place of origin of the object that it adorns. In some cases the interpretation of the motif might be able to be used, especially so when the object that the motif adorns can be positively identified as being from a particular place. But where we have an object that could be from one of many places we most certainly cannot use a very common art motif used in its decoration to positively identify point of origin of the object, most especially so when that object has been damaged.

Then we have another little problem. In Jawa there are several places that have made objects for export to other places since the time of Majapahit at least. These objects that have been exported include the blades of weapons, including keris, and items needed to dress these weapons, especially items that need a high degree of technical skill. The making of a pendok does require a high degree of technical skill, and pendoks have been made in Jawa for a long time for export to other places.

In Kota Gede, near Jogja in Central Jawa the industry of silver & brass work has existed for at least several hundred years, it grew and flourished in the late colonial era, and today its workshops supply silver religious objects to cathedrals in New York and Rome, and menorah to synagogues in USA and across the world. Some of these workshops have also supplied pendoks to other places in South East Asia for over 100 years.

Then there are the craftsmen who make these silver & brass objects. Young men come from places across Indonesia to learn the craft of silver & brass work in Jogja, then they go home to wherever they came from use the skills, tools and motifs that they learnt in Jogja to produce items in their own home towns. A similar situation applies on a much lesser scale in Eastern Indonesia, where young men come from the islands east of Bali to learn the silver & brass crafts in Celuk and the Ubud area in general, and then take those skills home with them. Of course, some craftsmen who might not be doing too well in the highly competitive market of Central Jawa also decide to move to a different area where there is less competition and higher rewards.

To my mind, it is never wise to dismiss the opinion of any person who is recognised in his own culture & society as an authority in any field. People such as the authors of "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" are recognised by keris literate people in Indonesia as a whole, and in Sulawesi in particular, as authorities in the field of Bugis edged weaponry. People of Bugis heritage do own their own culture. Their opinions must be taken note of, and if we wish to dismiss those opinions we must be able to build a very strong supporting case.

As I have already advised, I know very little about keris from areas other than Jawa and perhaps Bali, but I do know sufficient to understand that I do not know.

Based upon the evidence presented of a single photograph of a damaged pendok that bears a motif that can be found across all of Indonesia, and possibly beyond, I find that it is absolutely impossible for me to name with any confidence a probable location for the origin of the pendok shown in photo #8.

I've said it before:- the more I learn, the less I know.