Tiny jamadhar (katar)

Emanuel · 27th May 2008, 02:35 AM

I recently got this little jamadjar. The blade is 6 3/4" long with a nice rib and thickened tip. The grips are only 6 cm (2 1/4") accross and I can barely fit in three fingers. There has been ample discussion about the size of 19th century Indian hands being considerably smaller than 21st century European ones, but still this is TINY. Child's piece??

I find the stars on the "guard" interesting, also the fleur-de-lys type decoration. They look a bit crude. I don't recall seeing the stars before on forum examples.

I cleaned the extensive rust with vinegar and I haven't seen any solid pattern pop up, so I assume this is mono steel.

So any thoughts about this piece?

Lew · 27th May 2008, 02:44 AM

Seems like a boys katar to me.

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 27th May 2008, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

I find the stars on the "guard" interesting, also the fleur-de-lys type decoration. They look a bit crude. I don't recall seeing the stars before on forum examples.

So any thoughts about this piece?

Nice Piece Manolo and good timing, I was asking that very question to the Gentleman I speak of in the "2nd Kindjal" posting as I too was curious about these marking that Scratch has on a katar and that is also found on the Feranghi I have here. From what I have been told today, and I have had no time to research this, but it is of French origins as they were precent in India in the 1670's, it was the English who we know best as being there, but the French were there first so I am guessing as I say without research there lay your answer.

The stars I know not but will ask when the monent presents it'self.

regards

Gav

Lew · 27th May 2008, 04:43 PM

Gav

I believe that symbol at the base of the katar is really a stylized lotus blossom. These flowers hold great significance in Hindu culture.

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

I believe that symbol at the base of the katar is really a stylized lotus blossom. These flowers hold great significance in Hindu culture.

Right on it Lew! That full version is termed the kundalini, and as you note prevalent in Hindu metaphysical symbolism.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th May 2008, 05:36 PM

Manolo, it is an interesting katar. The size indicates, most likely, that it was made for a young man. The stars are often seen in Indian weapons, they could be decoration or have some talismanic value no one seems to know. However the real interesting thing is the two connections between the two cross bars, try to search for katars with these two connections, and when you have found enough, and they all point in the same direction, you may have found the place of origin.

Lew, nice katar, in a good condition, and yes, the flower is a Lotus bud. All flowers had a different meaning to the Hindus, but the Lotus was the most important.

Emanuel · 28th May 2008, 01:16 AM

Yes Jens, I caught on a couple of discussions about those cross bar connections. Lots of reading ahead...
Thanks Jim for the correct term! I do recall the significance of the lotus bloom, but it looked so much like a fleur-de-lys in this case.

Emanuel

Gavin Nugent · 28th May 2008, 09:18 AM

Nice image and well pointed out Lew, it is one of the most ancient Asian Symbols, if only I had turned the page in the Flower section of my symbolism book. There is a great image I could add but it is too small. The caption reads " A third century Indian figurine represents a mother goddess, shown here squatting in childbirth, she has the Lotus, a symbol of fertility, for a head.

That wouldn't be a good poker hand, 3rd century trumps the 17th

Gav

27th May 2008, 02:35 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Tiny jamadhar (katar) I recently got this little jamadjar. The blade is 6 3/4" long with a nice rib and thickened tip. The grips are only 6 cm (2 1/4") accross and I can barely fit in three fingers. There has been ample discussion about the size of 19th century Indian hands being considerably smaller than 21st century European ones, but still this is TINY. Child's piece?? I find the stars on the "guard" interesting, also the fleur-de-lys type decoration. They look a bit crude. I don't recall seeing the stars before on forum examples. I cleaned the extensive rust with vinegar and I haven't seen any solid pattern pop up, so I assume this is mono steel. So any thoughts about this piece? Attached Images

27th May 2008, 04:43 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav I believe that symbol at the base of the katar is really a stylized lotus blossom. These flowers hold great significance in Hindu culture. Attached Images

28th May 2008, 09:18 AM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Well pointed out Lew Nice image and well pointed out Lew, it is one of the most ancient Asian Symbols, if only I had turned the page in the Flower section of my symbolism book. There is a great image I could add but it is too small. The caption reads " A third century Indian figurine represents a mother goddess, shown here squatting in childbirth, she has the Lotus, a symbol of fertility, for a head. That wouldn't be a good poker hand, 3rd century trumps the 17th Gav Last edited by freebooter; 28th May 2008 at 09:28 AM.

27th May 2008, 02:44 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Seems like a boys katar to me. Lew

27th May 2008, 05:36 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Manolo, it is an interesting katar. The size indicates, most likely, that it was made for a young man. The stars are often seen in Indian weapons, they could be decoration or have some talismanic value no one seems to know. However the real interesting thing is the two connections between the two cross bars, try to search for katars with these two connections, and when you have found enough, and they all point in the same direction, you may have found the place of origin. Lew, nice katar, in a good condition, and yes, the flower is a Lotus bud. All flowers had a different meaning to the Hindus, but the Lotus was the most important.

28th May 2008, 01:16 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Yes Jens, I caught on a couple of discussions about those cross bar connections. Lots of reading ahead... Thanks Jim for the correct term! I do recall the significance of the lotus bloom, but it looked so much like a fleur-de-lys in this case. Emanuel