Old North Europenean Knife

Tatyana Dianova · 1st December 2007, 06:25 PM

This is another fetch from the local flea market

Looks to be a quite old North Europenean knife. The hilt is made from the very hard root wood, it has some varnish traces and steel collar. The blade is handforged, it has a tanto like tip and one shallow fuller. The scabbard is tooled leather.
The knife in scabbard lookes like a fish - I really like its shape! It also was used many times in its life - the blade is worn a bit. Can somebody tell me more about it: the name (puuko???), country, age?

Tatyana Dianova · 1st December 2007, 06:37 PM

It seems that I put it on the wrong forum - I'm not going to sell this one

It would be good if moderators will move this one to Ethnographic Weapons Forum...

Henk · 1st December 2007, 09:06 PM

Certainly a north european knife. It is a finish puukko knife. The handle is birchwood. It certainly has some age, but I don't know how old it is.

But it is a lovely knife indeed.

Rich · 1st December 2007, 11:05 PM

Yes, if Finnish it's a puukko (term also commonly but mistakenly used
for most all Nordic knives of this design). The same style was also
made in Norway and Sweden. (I collect and make puukko).
The style of sheath is called Kalavala. Too bad the blade is so badly worn as most were signed by the company or maker. Most of the Finnish puukko were signed in the fuller while the Swedish and Norwegian ones were signed on the
blade itself usually on the upper portion. Many of the Norwegian and
Swedish ones were (are) made with laminated steel. If you're interested
in the design and would like to see many modern ones check out this site.

Ragweed Forge:

http://www.ragweedforge.com

Check out the Jarvenpaa, Ahti, Helle, Lapin Puukko and Mora sections especially. Some of the other brands also sell the same design.

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2007, 11:12 PM

Hi Tatyana,
Its great to see you posting here! and you did indeed post on the right forum. As Henk has noted this is a Finnish 'puuko' , and as he has noted, it is difficult to estimate age on these, however most of them are contemporary to about WWII period. While these are generally considered utility knives, it is known that the Finns are incredibly adept at fighting with them. During WWII it is known that many of the Finnish soldiers chose them over bayonets in close quarters hand to hand combat.

There is little written on them, however a very comprehensive article on them appeared in 2001 by Robert Dohrenwend, "The Puuko", Arms Collecting, Vol.39, #1, February, 2001. I think back issues may still be obtained through the Canadian Arms Collectors Society, as this was thier journal.

All very best regards,
Jim

Rich · 1st December 2007, 11:16 PM

There is also a great book in English by Les Ristinen "Collectible Knives of
Finland" that covers both antique, vintage and modern puukko and
leuku. Highly recommended and still in print.

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2007, 11:22 PM

Thanks for the information on these knives Rich. I've always wondered myself, just what is the heritage on these? It seems all I've seen were relatively recent, and wondered if the form extends into 19th century?

All best regards,
Jim

Rich · 2nd December 2007, 01:35 AM

Jim -

Yes, the basic form dates back 100's of years. I've examples from
the 1800's and have seen them in Finnish museum sites dating
nearly 1000 years ago. I guess it's a case if a design works well,
don't mess with it :-)

While the basic "drop hook" pommel style is common to most Nordic
countries; there is a lot of variation in the sheaths. The Kalavala
style and Kauhava style tube sheath are generally Finnish. The
Norwegian sheaths tend to be folded and side stitched on one side.
Commonly the knives will have a "keeper" stud on the top and a
leather keeper strap on the sheath. The Swedish sheaths tend to
be flat two piece stitched commonly with metal at the throat and
tip.

The Finnish puukko comes in a great variety of styles; main difference
being in the pommel design; the horsehead is perhaps another of
the best known Finnish puukko designs (it only dates back to
early 20th C or maybe late 19th, I forget the exact date).

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2007, 01:46 AM

Hi Rich,
Any way to see some of the earlier examples? I'd like to see this develop into some historical material on these seldom discussed knives.
You're right on the design, they really are handsome little knives!

All best regards,
Jim

Rich · 2nd December 2007, 01:53 AM

Jim -

I can post some pics of a few of my knives, but my pics aren't
all that good. Here are the URL's of two sites that have lots
on info and pics of puukko and leuku (Lapland style; aka "Sammi").

http://www.nordiskamuseet.se/exhibs/sameting/Same2.aspx

and collections of various puukko at:

http://www.cultur.nu/knivar/index.shtml

Together with those from Norway, etc.

Some sets have gotten quite valuable to collectors. A doublet set
of nested puukko by a company only in business for a couple years
in the 1920's recently sold on ebay to a European collector for nearly
$800. That kind of price is really rare however.

I've put together a links page of Nordic knife sites that folks might be
interested in if they like these styles.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rsblade/puukko.htm

Rich S

RobT · 2nd December 2007, 02:58 AM

Hi Tatyana Dianova,
According to The Knives of Finland by Lester C. Ristinen, "A much lamented "blood grove" was ground into the blades by the Kauhava knifemakers beginning in 1905. Finnish knife purists were dismayed and the Finnish author, Sakari Palsi, in his book titled "Puukko" complained that the grinding of the useless, borrowed blood grove is a travesty in puukko manufacture.". If Mr. Ristinen is correct, your blade dates to post 1904. You might do well to contact Mr Alan Maisey of the keris forum. I believe he collects puukko. If he is as knowledgeable about puukko as he is about Javanese keris all your questions will be answered.
Sincerely,
RobT

Rich · 2nd December 2007, 10:36 AM

Here's a few pictures of various "puukko". All are 20th C made.

Rich S

Rich · 2nd December 2007, 10:38 AM

And a couple more pics:

Rich S

kronckew · 2nd December 2007, 08:32 PM

a couple of mine, top one is an older one, unsigned.

the bottom one is a late 20th c. marttiini custom from their gallerie art range, signed j. marttiini - finland alongside the fuller.

Rich · 2nd December 2007, 10:19 PM

Your top puukko is likely by Iisakki Jarvenpaa of Kauhava Finland.
I have one exactly like it, also unsigned and one exactly like it
signed Iisakki Jarvenpaa. For some reason, Jarvenpaa made a lot
of unsigned blades in the mid 20th C. No idea why. They were and
are the largest Finnish knife company.

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2007, 05:11 AM

Thank you so much for these great illustrations Rich!!! It seems all I've seen is line drawings of these (Faktor) and to see them fully illustrated shows what incredibly attractive knives they are.
Kronckew, those are some beauties you've got there! I think if I was going for a hunting knife it'd be one of these......gotta be careful about saying that out here in Bowie country!!

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. I think we lost Tatyana but I'm glad to have a thread on these!

Jeff Pringle · 3rd December 2007, 07:49 AM

This recently showed up at my house, looks like the blade is made from non-commercial steel. 12" or 30 cm overall length.

Tatyana Dianova · 3rd December 2007, 08:05 AM

Thank you guys for the great replies!
My puukko have also no maker's mark (and never had it, because it is not so much worn).

kronckew · 3rd December 2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
Kronckew, those are some beauties you've got there! I think if I was going for a hunting knife it'd be one of these......gotta be careful about saying that out here in Bowie country!!

...

thanks for the kind words.

with a name like 'jim', a bowie would seem to fit

my 'user' is a bit newer and considerably cheaper, got two of these carbon steel Mora's (e.jonsson) for under $10.

the grip is actually wood under that paint, i've cleaned it off the other one and it appears to be birch. while i've got a few bowies, they are not really field knives, not unless you're in a combat zone anyways.

kronckew · 3rd December 2007, 09:51 AM

a bit more on topic, if you prefer pocket knives, but want a scandi style, the swedish eskilstunta barrel knife is also quite nice. i've seen a number of these on ebay in different sizes and either brass or german silver barrel ends. the wood normally has quite a nice figure. they are frequently labelled as being from 1873, but that was the model number, NOT the year of mfg. which varies.

here's my 3" p. holmberg with german silver ends, showing how it works...

or if you want to blend in with the bowie crowd, here's another scandi user, a swedish scout knife in laminated steel. children are generally given knives with guards until they become proficient enough to not need one. a rite of passage is when they are given their first guardless knife.

Rich · 3rd December 2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

This recently showed up at my house, looks like the blade is made from non-commercial steel. 12" or 30 cm overall length.

Really nice old leuku. Hard to find good old ones as these tended to
get used hard and used up. Good find.

Rich S

Rich · 3rd December 2007, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

a bit more on topic, if you prefer pocket knives, but want a scandi style, the swedish eskilstunta barrel knife is also quite nice. i've seen a number of these on ebay in different sizes and either brass or german silver barrel ends. the wood normally has quite a nice figure. they are frequently labelled as being from 1873, but that was the model number, NOT the year of mfg. which varies.

My wife collects barrel knives. Here's a pic of her collection. They range
in size from under 1 inch to over 10 inches closed. She also has a VERY
rare two bladed one.

There are links to several good
articles on them on my Nordic knives link page below. The article
by Per Thoresen is especially good.

http://kniver.blogspot.com/search/label/Barrel%20knives

Nordic Knife Links page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rsblade/puukko.htm

Rich S

2nd December 2007, 02:58 AM	#11
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Post 1904 Hi Tatyana Dianova, According to The Knives of Finland by Lester C. Ristinen, "A much lamented "blood grove" was ground into the blades by the Kauhava knifemakers beginning in 1905. Finnish knife purists were dismayed and the Finnish author, Sakari Palsi, in his book titled "Puukko" complained that the grinding of the useless, borrowed blood grove is a travesty in puukko manufacture.". If Mr. Ristinen is correct, your blade dates to post 1904. You might do well to contact Mr Alan Maisey of the keris forum. I believe he collects puukko. If he is as knowledgeable about puukko as he is about Javanese keris all your questions will be answered. Sincerely, RobT

2nd December 2007, 10:36 AM	#12
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Here's a few pictures of various "puukko". All are 20th C made. Rich S Attached Images

2nd December 2007, 10:38 AM	#13
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	And a couple more pics: Rich S Attached Images

2nd December 2007, 08:32 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	a couple of mine, top one is an older one, unsigned. the bottom one is a late 20th c. marttiini custom from their gallerie art range, signed j. marttiini - finland alongside the fuller. Last edited by kronckew; 2nd December 2007 at 08:44 PM.

3rd December 2007, 07:49 AM	#17
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	This recently showed up at my house, looks like the blade is made from non-commercial steel. 12" or 30 cm overall length. Attached Images

1st December 2007, 06:25 PM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 698	Old North Europenean Knife This is another fetch from the local flea market Looks to be a quite old North Europenean knife. The hilt is made from the very hard root wood, it has some varnish traces and steel collar. The blade is handforged, it has a tanto like tip and one shallow fuller. The scabbard is tooled leather. The knife in scabbard lookes like a fish - I really like its shape! It also was used many times in its life - the blade is worn a bit. Can somebody tell me more about it: the name (puuko???), country, age? Attached Images

1st December 2007, 06:37 PM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 698	It seems that I put it on the wrong forum - I'm not going to sell this one It would be good if moderators will move this one to Ethnographic Weapons Forum...

1st December 2007, 09:06 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Certainly a north european knife. It is a finish puukko knife. The handle is birchwood. It certainly has some age, but I don't know how old it is. But it is a lovely knife indeed.

1st December 2007, 11:05 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Yes, if Finnish it's a puukko (term also commonly but mistakenly used for most all Nordic knives of this design). The same style was also made in Norway and Sweden. (I collect and make puukko). The style of sheath is called Kalavala. Too bad the blade is so badly worn as most were signed by the company or maker. Most of the Finnish puukko were signed in the fuller while the Swedish and Norwegian ones were signed on the blade itself usually on the upper portion. Many of the Norwegian and Swedish ones were (are) made with laminated steel. If you're interested in the design and would like to see many modern ones check out this site. Ragweed Forge: http://www.ragweedforge.com Check out the Jarvenpaa, Ahti, Helle, Lapin Puukko and Mora sections especially. Some of the other brands also sell the same design. Rich S

1st December 2007, 11:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Tatyana, Its great to see you posting here! and you did indeed post on the right forum. As Henk has noted this is a Finnish 'puuko' , and as he has noted, it is difficult to estimate age on these, however most of them are contemporary to about WWII period. While these are generally considered utility knives, it is known that the Finns are incredibly adept at fighting with them. During WWII it is known that many of the Finnish soldiers chose them over bayonets in close quarters hand to hand combat. There is little written on them, however a very comprehensive article on them appeared in 2001 by Robert Dohrenwend, "The Puuko", Arms Collecting, Vol.39, #1, February, 2001. I think back issues may still be obtained through the Canadian Arms Collectors Society, as this was thier journal. All very best regards, Jim

1st December 2007, 11:16 PM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	There is also a great book in English by Les Ristinen "Collectible Knives of Finland" that covers both antique, vintage and modern puukko and leuku. Highly recommended and still in print. Rich S

1st December 2007, 11:22 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Thanks for the information on these knives Rich. I've always wondered myself, just what is the heritage on these? It seems all I've seen were relatively recent, and wondered if the form extends into 19th century? All best regards, Jim

2nd December 2007, 01:35 AM	#8
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Jim - Yes, the basic form dates back 100's of years. I've examples from the 1800's and have seen them in Finnish museum sites dating nearly 1000 years ago. I guess it's a case if a design works well, don't mess with it :-) While the basic "drop hook" pommel style is common to most Nordic countries; there is a lot of variation in the sheaths. The Kalavala style and Kauhava style tube sheath are generally Finnish. The Norwegian sheaths tend to be folded and side stitched on one side. Commonly the knives will have a "keeper" stud on the top and a leather keeper strap on the sheath. The Swedish sheaths tend to be flat two piece stitched commonly with metal at the throat and tip. The Finnish puukko comes in a great variety of styles; main difference being in the pommel design; the horsehead is perhaps another of the best known Finnish puukko designs (it only dates back to early 20th C or maybe late 19th, I forget the exact date). Rich S

2nd December 2007, 01:46 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Rich, Any way to see some of the earlier examples? I'd like to see this develop into some historical material on these seldom discussed knives. You're right on the design, they really are handsome little knives! All best regards, Jim

2nd December 2007, 01:53 AM	#10
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Jim - I can post some pics of a few of my knives, but my pics aren't all that good. Here are the URL's of two sites that have lots on info and pics of puukko and leuku (Lapland style; aka "Sammi"). http://www.nordiskamuseet.se/exhibs/sameting/Same2.aspx and collections of various puukko at: http://www.cultur.nu/knivar/index.shtml Together with those from Norway, etc. Some sets have gotten quite valuable to collectors. A doublet set of nested puukko by a company only in business for a couple years in the 1920's recently sold on ebay to a European collector for nearly $800. That kind of price is really rare however. I've put together a links page of Nordic knife sites that folks might be interested in if they like these styles. http://home.earthlink.net/~rsblade/puukko.htm Rich S

2nd December 2007, 10:19 PM	#15
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Your top puukko is likely by Iisakki Jarvenpaa of Kauhava Finland. I have one exactly like it, also unsigned and one exactly like it signed Iisakki Jarvenpaa. For some reason, Jarvenpaa made a lot of unsigned blades in the mid 20th C. No idea why. They were and are the largest Finnish knife company. Rich S

3rd December 2007, 05:11 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Thank you so much for these great illustrations Rich!!! It seems all I've seen is line drawings of these (Faktor) and to see them fully illustrated shows what incredibly attractive knives they are. Kronckew, those are some beauties you've got there! I think if I was going for a hunting knife it'd be one of these......gotta be careful about saying that out here in Bowie country!! All best regards, Jim P.S. I think we lost Tatyana but I'm glad to have a thread on these!

3rd December 2007, 08:05 AM	#18
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 698	Thank you guys for the great replies! My puukko have also no maker's mark (and never had it, because it is not so much worn).

3rd December 2007, 09:51 AM	#20
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	a bit more on topic, if you prefer pocket knives, but want a scandi style, the swedish eskilstunta barrel knife is also quite nice. i've seen a number of these on ebay in different sizes and either brass or german silver barrel ends. the wood normally has quite a nice figure. they are frequently labelled as being from 1873, but that was the model number, NOT the year of mfg. which varies. here's my 3" p. holmberg with german silver ends, showing how it works... or if you want to blend in with the bowie crowd, here's another scandi user, a swedish scout knife in laminated steel. children are generally given knives with guards until they become proficient enough to not need one. a rite of passage is when they are given their first guardless knife. Last edited by kronckew; 3rd December 2007 at 10:19 AM.