First Choora

[harrywagner]

A recent purchase. I believe the grip strap and bolsters are steel and the hilt is either bone or horn. The inlay at the forte and on the spine is gold, I think. The blade is a mystery. I am guessing Afghanistan, 19thc.

All comments welcome. TIA!

Harry

[mahratt]

It really is Afghanistan. Handle - bone. Only with this I agree.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by mahratt

It really is Afghanistan. Handle - bone. Only with this I agree.

I am frequently wrong, but appreciate the truth. Please feel free to say what you think. I have not had a chance to really look at it closely. I am hoping more experienced collectors can help identify its origin and date. It "seems" old, but I have been fooled before. Many times

[Jim McDougall]

While I cannot claim specific expertise in these, I would say that it is a bone handle, and that this example is from early 20th c. These are typically from areas in and around the Khyber Pass, as well as the larger scope of the region known as Waziristan, and often regarded as from the Mahsud tribes of Waziristan.
While these with their distinct shaped hilts which are more of a 'hook' type pommel are termed choora, this seems to have been a vernacular term describing 'knives' which became associated with these apparently much later. In the time these were shown by Egerton (1884) they were, much as in most cases with the variants of these Indian/Afghan daggers, referred to collectively as pesh kabz.

Holstein (1931) shows an entire panel of what appear to be pesh kabz, bicak, karud etc but terms them all classified as pesh kabz.
However, in Egerton's time, Burton (1885) describes a knives in a cummerbund as 'charays' and Egerton himself uses the term ch'hurra as a term for 'knife', but it is not used as a classification.

It is very hard to place these weapons in a certain defined region as clearly they diffused widely via tribal interaction and colonial presence, and to place dates without provenance as the forms remained traditionally continued over long periods. As seen with many forms, even the proper terms are challenging with the situations described here.

I think you can safely presume this is a very nicely done example of 'choora' from Afghan regions in early 20th c .

Photo of Mahsud tribesmen, North West Frontier and map

[Gavin Nugent]

Another great assessment Jim.

Harry, I too would place this in the first 20-30years of the 20th century, they were made well after this too I am sure.

There are two schools of thought with these, one is they were never before 1900, the other is that they were...evidence does show these, as Jim referenced, that they appear well before 1900...but back to yours.

The overall designs and material to me, point to the early 20th century. To compare horses to horses, I too have one remaining in my collections, that if you saw it at face value, you'd say 19th century for sure as it is a superb quality for the type and has a wootz blade... but, it is named and dated as Lofty helpfully translated, dated to 1901 in our calendar. One could certainly argue both sides of the fence for it saying the inscription came later and wootz much be earlier, but equally, wootz blades were still being forged in to the early 20th century within Central Asia.

Gav

[Bob A]

Hilt is bone, certainly.

What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat.

I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

[ariel]

Gavin,
Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901.
Can you direct me to the topic with pics?
Thanks

[harrywagner]

Jim, Gavin, - many thanks! 19thc was just a guess on my part. I am terrible at determining an objects age. Fortunately it is not a big deal for me. It took some looking to find one of these that was complete, had only minor condition issues, and was within my budget. I will be happy if it's not a fake!

A couple of questions:
- Is this wootz? It almost looks like patterned steel the way it seems divided into sections. I have only one other knife that I believe has a wootz blade and the steel looks quite different.
- Is the inlay gold or brass? It looks like gold to me but I have been fooled before. Ditto for silver and some steel. I "think" this is steel with a small gold inlay.

Thanks again to you both for the help, and for the info, map, photo, etc. Much appreciated.

Harry

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Bob A

Hilt is bone, certainly.

What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat.

I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

Thanks Bob! I don't know what to make of it. Good observation about the sheath. The knife, when pushed all the way in, pokes, just slightly out the tip. Possibly a replacement sheath? Thanks also for answering the "brass or gold" question for me. I have a difficult time differentiating the two sometimes.

[Bob A]

Well, after posting, I looked around online at a number of these knives, and found that the decorations on the hilt were rather more common that I had recalled, and rather similar to yours. So score one against my shooting from the lip, so to speak.

Still, the markings on the flat of the blade continue to give me pause, so it's possible that I'm not quite so inept a fool as I give myself credit for being.

As to brass or gold, I'm inclined toward brass, but that's probably easily answered by a jeweler/pawnbroker, who will have a test kit for determining that sort of thing fairly easily.

If there's any other faulty information I can offer you, don't hesitate to ask.

[estcrh]

The origin and dating of the small Afghan dagger currently called "choora" is rather murky, Here is George Stone's discription and image. The bottom photo seems to show a choora being worn, it is from around 1920, from an album of 65 photographs compiled by Major General W M Kirke, Waziristan, North West Frontier (1920-1937). National Army Museum, Study collection.

Mahsuds in Waziristan, circa 1920.

The Mahsuds were Pathan tribesmen who inhabited Waziristan. They were probably the most formidable fighters on the frontier. Highly mobile, able to live off the most meagre rations, and fine shots, they were perfectly adapted to their mountainous homeland. Fiercely independent, they had honed their fighting skills by years of raiding the settled areas to the east, along the Indus, and by attacking the trading caravans that travelled to and from Afghanistan. In 1919 their fighting strength was estimated at over 11,000 warriors. Only the most experienced and well-trained British and Indian units could match the Mahsud in frontier fighting.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The origin and dating of the small Afghan dagger currently called "choora" is rather murky, Here is George Stone's discription and image. The bottom photo seems to show a choora being worn, it is from around 1920, from an album of 65 photographs compiled by Major General W M Kirke, Waziristan, North West Frontier (1920-1937). National Army Museum, Study collection.

Thanks estcrh! I love that photo. I did not realize I was resurrecting a contentious debate when I wrote that I thought it was 19c. The fullers on this one and the one in the photo you have provided look the same to me. I would call it a fuller "on steroids".

[ariel]

Harry,
Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration.
Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published.

I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ariel

Harry,
Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration.
Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published.

I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!

Thanks Ariel! No reason for despair here. This one exceeds my expectations. I did not think I would find one as nice as this, and that was within my budget. I'm going to catalog it as having brass inserts and mid 20th, or possibly a little older. I still don't understand the blade. It looks like it has been segmented into a series of panels, each with a different design, yet it is smooth. I don't have a clue how this was done.

[Jim McDougall]

While looking further into these interesting and unique daggers we now term 'choora',as explained in earlier posts, I would like to express some thoughts on the possible origins of this apparent variant form of 'karud'.
It seems it has been suggested that in many cases karud blades have been remounted in these uniquely charactered hilts.

In looking at the map earlier posted, the Mahsud territories are directly adjacent to Bannu, and Egerton I believe did note Bannu provenance to one of these.

Some will recall discussions we have had regarding the small 'crow beak' type pickaxes which have been termed (in these collectors parlances), the 'lohar'. Stone claims they are attributed to the 'Banochie' (Bannuchi) tribes of Khyber regions (pp. 418-19). While this attribution may have some merit, the term for these, 'lohar' is believed to derive from itinerant blacksmiths of Rajasthani ancestry known as the Gadia Lohars (the term lohar may be Hindi for iron).

In some of the later (1920s+) versions of these they are folding (as attached) and the general themes of motif seem to correspond to these 'choora' in cases.

The pickaxe lohars are actually quite small, and suggest being covert weapons during British occupations in these areas where obviously arms were prohibited so easily concealed. Possibly these small daggers (often seeming to be small cousins of the larger Khyber knives) might have been produced by these 'Lohars' also, and became a locally favored form.

As seen by Egerton, his sketch seems to approximate the hooked style of the pommel of these (see also the lohar of 20th c. carrying similar style) but he termed it simply pesh kabz as the collective term for some of these forms .

It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile?

Gav, thank you for the kind words on my earlier post.

Mahratt, I hope you might consider my suggestions here as you I know have done quite a bit of research on these daggers, and I wonder if you think this perspective might be viable.

Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger.

Thanks Jim! I will add that book to my reading list. We have an outstanding library where I live so I am fairly certain I can borrow a copy. I am not worried at all about this knife's age. It's not new, nor a fake, reproduction nor tourist piece, so I am happy. Thanks again for your help!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901.
Can you direct me to the topic with pics?
Thanks

You did not miss it Ariel, you entered in to discussion about it.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=48

Gavin

[kronckew]

the blade on the OP's choora seems etched with floral patterns like mine rather than pattern welded. i suspect the yellow metal is brass. the blade/brass sawtoothed bolster area & some spine bits appears to have a red supstance painted on, similar to mine, it may be a decorative but not very durable waxy substance.

mine is a bit more decorative with copper and brass spine inlays. some of the grip spacers, like the OP's, are aluminum, a regal metal before the hall process. the razor sharp needle pointed blade has silver, gold, and copper flower decorations. red coral beads on silver wire on the pommel ring for a bit more bling.

very plain wood interior brass covered scabbard i think may have had a fancy cloth or leather cover which is now missing. the hanger portion is aluminum and the two rings are soldered copper.

i suspect the sheet aluminum grip spacers on our knives puts the date to more recent than earlier.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by kronckew

the blade on the OP's choora seems etched with floral patterns like mine rather than pattern welded. i suspect the yellow metal is brass. the blade/brass sawtoothed bolster area & some spine bits appears to have a red supstance painted on, similar to mine, it may be a decorative but not very durable waxy substance.

mine is a bit more decorative with copper and brass spine inlays. some of the grip spacers are aluminum, a regal metal before the hall process. the razor sharp needle pointed blade has silver, gold, and copper flower decorations. red coral beads on silver wire on the pommel ring for a bit more bling.

very plain wood interior brass covered scabbard i think may have had a fancy cloth or leather cover which is now missing. the hanger portion is aluminum and the two rings are soldered copper.

Thank you very much! The patterns on the blade do seem similar. Too much so to be coincidence (IMO). Absolutely gorgeous knife. Thanks for sharing it.

[kronckew]

the brass grip patterns are similar too. quite possibly same maker or his assistants.

better shot of mine:

[ariel]

It is quite interesting how massive are its widely spaced ears! Almost yataghan-ish!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is quite interesting how massive are its widely spaced ears! Almost yataghan-ish!

Now this is velly, velly interesting!!!
That is most definitely yataghan-ish, and a most attractive embellishment.

[kronckew]

wow! learn something new every day! never noticed that before, i assumed from seeing side shots that they all were like mine.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

You did not miss it Ariel, you entered in to discussion about it.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=48

Gavin

Gavin,
The pics did not show the inscriptions and the wootz pattern. Do you still have them in your archives?
Will be much obliged.
Ariel

[ariel]

Re. the thread mentioned by Gavin : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...99&postcount=48

Royston showed one that was a veritable Dumbo:-)

THAT was what I would call ears!

( I am reposting it here for easier reference. Hope Royston is not offended and this is not against the rules)

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
The pics did not show the inscriptions and the wootz pattern. Do you still have them in your archives?
Will be much obliged.
Ariel

Ariel, the knife is still in my collections, not sold and archived.
If time permits I'll find and photograph it.

Gavin

[Royston]

Ariel, no problem posting my photos.

Here are a few more of "Dumbo" which show off the ears.

The "nail polish" decoration appears on a lot of these. Anyone know what it is ?

Regards
Roy

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Royston

The "nail polish" decoration appears on a lot of these. Anyone know what it is ?

I don't know what that is but I have also seen it on at least one Khyber knife.

[ariel]

I was also wondering what kind of colored material they used to imitate enameling.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile?

Jim, I suspect the same.

Both "Choora" and " Karud" are essentially the same pattern. Their blades are identical in form and dimensions. In contrast, their handles vary enormously. The only explanation of the difference is likely to be a place of manufacture ( or, if one wishes, ethnicity of the manufacturers)

We know of the so-called "Karuds" that they were made and used in Afghanistan, Central Asia and India, In contrast, "Choora" was always ascribed to the Khyber Pass area, and there are no known examples from other parts of Afghanistan or Central Asian Khanates.

IMXO, most likely explanation is the tribal belonging of the owner/ maker.

Trade blades traveled far and wide, but were mounted according to the ethnic/tribal identity of the end owner.
The same Persian saber blade could become an Indian Tulwar, Afghani Pulwar, Syrian or South Arabian Saif, Georgian Khmali, Moroccan or Omani Nimcha, Sumatran Piso Podang or just Persian Shamshir. Trade yataghan blades were fitted with small silver Cretan handles or with massive ivory ones from the Balkans. Yemeni jambiyas can be attributed to a particular tribe/ social stratum only by the form and decoration of their hilts and scabbards. Egerton specifically mentioned that "Choora" blades were made in Kandahar ( likely plain) and Khorasan ( likely wootz).In Afghanistan, rich people could afford ivory handles and wootz blades.


I suspect that wootz blades were remounted time and again when the organic parts of the hilt broke down, because of their value and mystique.