Saying HI and looking for some help ......

[jmanjeff]

HI every one and to why i am here

Identification Of a sword
I am trying to help a friend and he was told it is a Russian Pioneer sword Model1797,There are 3 markings that can be seen the picture. Two of them are at the base of the blade and the other is a 5 point star on the hand guard. If there is any thing i need to post just lit me know.

Thank you

[jmanjeff]

Any one have any ideas 80 + views no replays, can any one tell me where i can find more info on this. All i have found is info on the 1827

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome to the forum! and sorry for the lack of responses here, I think you caught us at nap time
I am curious about the information your friend has on this, claiming it is a M1797 Russian pioneer sword. I checked Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967) and found the M1827, which is a solid cast brass hilt very much like those of the well known artillery briquettes and frankly is nothing like this one except for the heavy sawback blade.
What is most curious is the wood grip on this which recalls those on bayonets, and the most similar example to this type grip is an Austrian type M1862 pioneer falchion. This however has no other similarities and no sawtooth blade.

The crossguard on your friends example is curious and not familiar to me, though like most everybody else here, I'm not much up on Russian arms.
Also, there is precious little on other ranks weapons of these kinds unfortunately, and in many cases these were pretty much ersatz weapons put together to arm forces during various conflicts by unrecorded firms or contracts.

The markings stamped in the guard and on the blade also are not likely to give a great deal of information as these are usually control or inspection type marks which are no longer recorded or used, especially from those circumstances. The largest production factory later in the 19th c. was Zlatoust (c1817 on) and there were also centers at Sestroretsk, Olonets, Ijevsk as well ("Russian Military Swords, Eugene Mollo, 1969, p.3).

One of the marks appears Cyrillic, which I presume is leading us to Russian provenance.

I used the Mollo book (opcit.) which has almost nothing on other ranks swords, focused mostly on shashkas, and the Wagner book (1967).

Other sources listed are:
"Russkoe Oruzhie XI-XIX vekov", M.M. Denisov, Moscow 1953, which apparently was Wagner's reference for the M1827

"Historical Description of the Uniforms and Armaments of the Russian Army"
by Viskovatov, 30 vols St.Petersburg, 1844-56

I wanted to share these athough probably hard to access. It might be worthwhile to contact the National Army Museum in London as they have good records of Russian arms from the Crimean War (1853-56) and if these are Russian might have been in use.

I would suspect at this point this sword, clearly a pioneer type (the sawback is for clearing and putting together breastworks etc.) is probably an anomaly rather than regulation pattern, and likely mid 19th c. By the 1860s the Russian regulation sidearms for other ranks seemed usually cast brass.

I hope this helps and that maybe others here might be encouraged to check their references as well.

All best regards,
Jim

[jmanjeff]

Thanks for the reply Jim . The only one i have fond with the wood grip is at the National Army Museum in London "http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collection/detail.php?acc=1970-06-9-1" but it is not the same.

[David]

Honestly, i know next to nothing about these kind of blades, but to my eye the blade itself is clearly the model 1827. The hilt looks more like that found on similar Austro/German/Hungarian models. I would suggest that this knife had its original hilt swapped out from a different model at some time.

[Jim McDougall]

You're very welcome jman, I only wish I could have found something more helpful.
I did continue with an online search after exhausting my resources here in the bookmobile, and I did find one of these illustrated but with a curious ribbed and apparently leather covered grip. It had a strange pommel, but most important it had the M1827 blade and the odd jian like guard.

I agree that this blade is an 1827, and the wood grip most resembles the Austro-Hungarian M1862.

The one similar I found was on another website, 'Bladesmith Forum' and a thread from May 21,2006....the example was posted by a 'Svet' 1/16/07.

While 'Svet' identifies this as Russian, he offers no particulars and that he had already sold it.
I wonder if the example you have posted might be composite with the 1827 blade, the Austrian grip and one of these unusual guards. This guard reminds me of 19th century and later Chinese jian guards, but cant recall for certain where I had seen them .

All the best,
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I did continue with an online search after exhausting my resources here in the bookmobile, and I did find one of these illustrated but with a curious ribbed and apparently leather covered grip. It had a strange pommel, but most important it had the M1827 blade and the odd jian like guard.

I agree that this blade is an 1827, and the wood grip most resembles the Austro-Hungarian M1862.

The one similar I found was on another website, 'Bladesmith Forum' and a thread from May 21,2006....the example was posted by a 'Svet' 1/16/07.

While 'Svet' identifies this as Russian, he offers no particulars and that he had already sold it.

A link to this Bladesmith Forum might be helpful Jim.

[Jim McDougall]

https://www.google.com/search?source...&fromMainBar=1




David,
I had lost the original link unfortunately and thought by simply entering the data and name of the forum anyone could look it up on Google. I was apparently wrong as it is difficult to use the search on the forum without joining etc.
I have a new computer and my skills are pretty shallow as it is, so I regret not having saved the images or links. I guess I get a bit nervous on posting links and photos due to restrictions etc.
I found links to a site discussing Russian markings as well as the forum which I believe this example with the crescent like guard, which had the same guard and blade but the guard was ribbed like a cavalry sabre.

I also discovered that in the 1970s a small number of reproductions of the M1827 were made, and in more recent times others made as well, but these are all with the usual cast brass hilt.

I would note that on reproductions, there are as far as I have known, never been these kinds of markings or stamps associated with either manufacturing control, issuance and acceptance or sometimes unit designations. While seemingly insignificant and inconsistent, such as the rather bold 'Zlatoust' and others, these had distinct meanings for the many bureaucratic designations of units, and the many districts they were in .

I will keep trying to find the other image I had of the sword I mentioned.
Its really pretty amazing how much data can be found online!!! and Im working at entering the new world of technology Its hard when you're old school and still using books and notes!

[Jim McDougall]

Found it! The wood hilt is of course the M1862 Austro-Hungarian pioneer sword and the other is the one on the forum I noted. This was sold by 'Svet in 2007, and I found the thread by using 'Russian pioneer sword M1827 posted by Svet' (using Google).
He notes it is Russian in the text, but no reference further.

It would seem that the example we are discussing here is likely a combining of the original blade with this guard and an Austrian hilt.

[David]

Good searching Jim. There is also this thread on Bladesmith Forum that presents an example with the same cross guard, but a somewhat different style hilt.
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...ord#entry61843

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Good searching Jim. There is also this thread on Bladesmith Forum that presents an example with the same cross guard, but a somewhat different style hilt.
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...ord#entry61843

Thanks David, that's the one I was trying to show but I inadvertently posted the image of the standard M1827.
Wish we knew where this one came from but is a post from 2007 and the sword sold then.

[David]

What is the blade length of these knives btw?

[fernando]

Sorry fot being a bore, guys ...
Is this an ethno weapon ... or more probably a piece to discuss in the European section ? .
Not that its discussion will be more productive in there but ... you know, the benefit of the doubt

[David]

Fair point Nando…

[Unlocker]

that is Russian Pioneer sword Model 1797 i have few but without scabbard and one is in scabbard... maker mars is correct.

tough to find but unfotunately not many collectors for this type.

[Unlocker]

few of mine 1797 1824 1827