Visayan Kris

VVV · 9th March 2007, 06:05 PM

Recieved this heavy Kris that's collected in Negros.
Any ideas about what the star on the handle could symbolize?
And what is the, almost wootz resembling, pattern on the blade?

More pictures at

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Michael

kai · 9th March 2007, 07:17 PM

Hello Michael,

Quote:

And what is the, almost wootz resembling, pattern on the blade?

I realize that it's awfully difficult to photograph steel, especially wootz, but I can't see anything vaguely resembling wootz I'm afraid...

Those specks don't resemble any crucible steel pattern I've seen. Any intentions to polish this blade? This may help to reveal their true nature.

Best wishes,
Kai

Rick · 9th March 2007, 07:46 PM

Hi Michael,
I suspect the symbolism may be Katipunan .

VVV · 10th March 2007, 08:15 AM

Thanks for your comments.

Rick, I didn't think about Katipunan on a Visayan sword but maybe the star symbolise Visayas (like on the flag)?
Most of what I read about the Katipunan part of the revolution seems to have been centered to Luzon?
But there was the uprising of Papa Isio and his Tribo Pulahan on Negros. As far as I remember, of the statue of him on the crossroad in Barrio Isio, he didn't carry a Kris however?
Unfortunately I didn't have a digital camera at that time and I haven't been able to find a picture of the statue on the Internet to doublecheck.
But from what I have read he also had some contact with Rizal & Co.

Sorry for the lousy close up Kai. The blade actually is quite well preserved and has a nice grey patina that I don't feel like polish away. The specks you see on the picture are the dominant ones. All over there are several smaller ones that I unfortunately can't seem to catch on a picture.

Michael

Bill M · 10th March 2007, 10:02 AM

I really like the Negrito kris. Unusual and interesting. Good catch!

I had posted this dagger some time ago and there were comments about it being KKK origins, but I can't find that post.

VVV · 10th March 2007, 11:41 AM

Thanks Bill,

I see the sun and the three stars. But I haven't seen the sun with a face before, as well as those kind of stars, on Katipunan emblems?
I am sure that some of the other forumites know much more about it.

Michael

Battara · 10th March 2007, 06:55 PM

I almost bid on that piece.

This is unusual since most of the northern pieces with wavy blades are Illocos Norte in origin. I have only seen these from Illocanos. Thus I question the Negras origin.

On the Katipunan question, the sun with a face is a definite Katipunan emblem and was in fact incorporated later into the Malolos flag when the government as set up around latge 1899. It is a form of Malay sun and the rays in this case represent the 8 original provinces that revolted this last time against the Spanish. Later some of the Visayas revolted, like Bohol island, Negros, etc.

The star in the middle of the hilt in this case -

Bill - yours is the best example I have ever seen (grumble,grumble,envy,envy

). I would add that it may have belonged to a general.

Oh yes, here is that post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002102.html

VVV · 10th March 2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I almost bid on that piece.

This is unusual since most of the northern pieces with wavy blades are Illocos Norte in origin. I have only seen these from Illocanos. Thus I question the Negras origin.

(snip)

The star in the middle of the hilt in this case -

Hi Jose,

I don't have your experience with Luzon Kris.
Those I have seen have more the "usual" sword handle and slimmer blades.
Do you have examples of Illocano Kris that resembles mine?

I am aware of the Filipino flag symbolism but on the star please develop (I don't get it). Do you mean that the star is a sun with 6 rays???

Michael

LabanTayo · 10th March 2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I really like the Negrito kris.

Bill,
Negrito does not equal Negros.
There are Negritos all over the Philippines and the correct term for them is Aeta.

To call anyone who is from Negros, a Negrito, is not correct.
That is like calling anyone who was born in America, an Indian (which is not correct either).
To call an inanimate object from Negros, Negrito, is not a good thing either.

Remember, Negrito is the term used for the aboriginal inhabitants of the Philippines, not the people of Negros, or as you stated in another thread, the ancestral peoples of the Moros.

The Spanish originally called that island, Negros, because the people were dark.
The inhabitants of Negros now, are either Illongo or Cebuano, with some others, such as Waray-Waray.

I'm surpised the other Filipinos on the board havent corrected you yet.

VVV,
Very nice dagger!!!

This is a Visayan Dagger

Bill M · 11th March 2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

Bill,
Negrito does not equal Negros.
There are Negritos all over the Philippines and the correct term for them is Aeta.

To call anyone who is from Negros, a Negrito, is not correct.
That is like calling anyone who was born in America, an Indian (which is not correct either).
To call an inanimate object from Negros, Negrito, is not a good thing either.

Remember, Negrito is the term used for the aboriginal inhabitants of the Philippines, not the people of Negros, or as you stated in another thread, the ancestral peoples of the Moros.

The Spanish originally called that island, Negros, because the people were dark.
The inhabitants of Negros now, are either Illongo or Cebuano, with some others, such as Waray-Waray.

I'm surpised the other Filipinos on the board havent corrected you yet.

Hi Shelley,

Thank you for that correction. I will not make that mistake again. There is a lot of misinformation on the net.

I am now glad to know the difference you so well stated.

Regards,
Bill

LabanTayo · 11th March 2007, 01:29 AM

Bill,
Thanks for understanding.

VVV · 11th March 2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

VVV,
Very nice dagger!!!

This is a Visayan Dagger

Thanks Shelley,

So is yours.
But mine is not a dagger but a 22 3/8 inch sword, about the same size as an old Barong.
I should maybe have stressed that a bit better in the first post.

Michael

LabanTayo · 11th March 2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks Shelley,

So is yours.
But mine is not a dagger but a 22 3/8 inch sword, about the same size as an old Barong.
I should maybe have stressed that a bit better in the first post.

Michael

Michael,
My dagger is 23". I would still consider it a dagger for fighting purposes. Its too short for any real Visayan sword application.
Perfect length for Tai Ing's "Bando Wasso" though.

Shelley

VVV · 11th March 2007, 04:08 PM

He, he,

I usually refer to it as a sword when it's longer than a forearm.
Maybe that's why it has such a pronounced spear tip, being good for medium and short distance combined slashing and thrusting combos?
For long range however you have to be very fast in footwork and timing to use this Kris.

Michael

LabanTayo · 11th March 2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

He, he,

Maybe that's why it has such a pronounced spear tip, being good for medium and short distance combined slashing and thrusting combos?
For long range however you have to be very fast in footwork and timing to use this Kris.

Michael

Battara · 15th March 2007, 02:52 AM

HI VVV,

Rick (thanks

) resized and posted my Ilocano wavy dagger for me in the previous reply. You can see the pointed and wavy nature of the blade. On the back it says,"Laoag, Ylocos Norte" which is a town in Ilocos Norte.

For the star, I am not saying that the star is the Malay sun, but that the Malay sun with 8 rays coming from it is the final Kapitunan emblem (though there were many). In a different form, this is what is on the Philippine flag today. The star on your piece -

Spunjer · 15th March 2007, 05:23 AM

vvv

actually your dagger was originally bought in a gunshow in california, i believe, by the ebay seller. he just assumed it was from negros since he's been there.

edit for correction:

my bad, here's a snip from his email:

Quote:

You know, I don't remember exactly when and where I got this Negros Kris, one of the many shows I used to go to on the Mainland.

so it wasn't necessarily acquired in california.

VVV · 15th March 2007, 11:16 AM

Thanks J & J,

Then I must have misunderstood Lee on the origin.
I don't think my blade resembles Battara's and LabanTayo's examples that much but if you all think it's more probable of Ilocano origin I am open to that.
If any of you would care to explain your ideas on this sword in f.i. a PM or mail I would greatly appreciate it.

Michael

Battara · 15th March 2007, 11:55 PM

All of the examples that I have seen that are not Moro have been Ilocano. To my knowledge they are the only ones that have wavy blades outside of the Moroland.

Lew · 21st March 2007, 05:51 PM

VVV

Here is a kris with a similar dendritic pattern in the steel.

Lew

Ferguson · 21st March 2007, 08:48 PM

And another different pattern from normal.
Steve

Lew · 21st March 2007, 08:59 PM

This pic was taken from an old Philippine bolo and even though it looks like wootz the experts say no.

Lew

VVV · 21st March 2007, 10:14 PM

Thanks for sharing.

Do you have any ideas why those patterns show up on the blades?

Michael

9th March 2007, 06:05 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Visayan Kris Recieved this heavy Kris that's collected in Negros. Any ideas about what the star on the handle could symbolize? And what is the, almost wootz resembling, pattern on the blade? More pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Michael Attached Images

10th March 2007, 08:15 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for your comments. Rick, I didn't think about Katipunan on a Visayan sword but maybe the star symbolise Visayas (like on the flag)? Most of what I read about the Katipunan part of the revolution seems to have been centered to Luzon? But there was the uprising of Papa Isio and his Tribo Pulahan on Negros. As far as I remember, of the statue of him on the crossroad in Barrio Isio, he didn't carry a Kris however? Unfortunately I didn't have a digital camera at that time and I haven't been able to find a picture of the statue on the Internet to doublecheck. But from what I have read he also had some contact with Rizal & Co. Sorry for the lousy close up Kai. The blade actually is quite well preserved and has a nice grey patina that I don't feel like polish away. The specks you see on the picture are the dominant ones. All over there are several smaller ones that I unfortunately can't seem to catch on a picture. Michael Last edited by VVV; 10th March 2007 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Added info

10th March 2007, 10:02 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Katipunan I really like the Negrito kris. Unusual and interesting. Good catch! I had posted this dagger some time ago and there were comments about it being KKK origins, but I can't find that post. Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 10th March 2007 at 01:59 PM.

10th March 2007, 06:55 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I almost bid on that piece. This is unusual since most of the northern pieces with wavy blades are Illocos Norte in origin. I have only seen these from Illocanos. Thus I question the Negras origin. On the Katipunan question, the sun with a face is a definite Katipunan emblem and was in fact incorporated later into the Malolos flag when the government as set up around latge 1899. It is a form of Malay sun and the rays in this case represent the 8 original provinces that revolted this last time against the Spanish. Later some of the Visayas revolted, like Bohol island, Negros, etc. The star in the middle of the hilt in this case - Bill - yours is the best example I have ever seen (grumble,grumble,envy,envy ). I would add that it may have belonged to a general. Oh yes, here is that post: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002102.html Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 13th March 2007 at 03:24 AM.

21st March 2007, 05:51 PM	#20
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	VVV Here is a kris with a similar dendritic pattern in the steel. Lew Attached Images

9th March 2007, 07:46 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Michael, I suspect the symbolism may be Katipunan .

10th March 2007, 11:41 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Bill, I see the sun and the three stars. But I haven't seen the sun with a face before, as well as those kind of stars, on Katipunan emblems? I am sure that some of the other forumites know much more about it. Michael

11th March 2007, 01:29 AM	#11
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	Bill, Thanks for understanding.

11th March 2007, 04:08 PM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	He, he, I usually refer to it as a sword when it's longer than a forearm. Maybe that's why it has such a pronounced spear tip, being good for medium and short distance combined slashing and thrusting combos? For long range however you have to be very fast in footwork and timing to use this Kris. Michael

15th March 2007, 02:52 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	HI VVV, Rick (thanks ) resized and posted my Ilocano wavy dagger for me in the previous reply. You can see the pointed and wavy nature of the blade. On the back it says,"Laoag, Ylocos Norte" which is a town in Ilocos Norte. For the star, I am not saying that the star is the Malay sun, but that the Malay sun with 8 rays coming from it is the final Kapitunan emblem (though there were many). In a different form, this is what is on the Philippine flag today. The star on your piece -

15th March 2007, 11:16 AM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks J & J, Then I must have misunderstood Lee on the origin. I don't think my blade resembles Battara's and LabanTayo's examples that much but if you all think it's more probable of Ilocano origin I am open to that. If any of you would care to explain your ideas on this sword in f.i. a PM or mail I would greatly appreciate it. Michael

15th March 2007, 11:55 PM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	All of the examples that I have seen that are not Moro have been Ilocano. To my knowledge they are the only ones that have wavy blades outside of the Moroland.

21st March 2007, 08:48 PM	#21
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	And another different pattern from normal. Steve

21st March 2007, 08:59 PM	#22
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This pic was taken from an old Philippine bolo and even though it looks like wootz the experts say no. Lew Attached Images

21st March 2007, 10:14 PM	#23
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for sharing. Do you have any ideas why those patterns show up on the blades? Michael