Badik for comment

[semar]

badik from celebes
handel is made from hoorn
scabbert made from silver
blade nice pamor

[Battara]

Another nice piece. Love the pamor. Is it recent or a recent etching?

[Sajen]

Wow, very nice one with beautiful pamor. Don't think it's recent but fresh etched.
Have a similar one in my collection, the form is the same but your's is more nice.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Is it certain that this style is from Sulawesi?

I've had several of these over the years, got the first in Jawa in about 1970, and anybody over there who has given an opinion on this style has always said they were Javanese.

I do not know where they come from.

Do we have a believable source?

[DaveA]

The pamor is quite interesting. It looks to be a mixture of (at least) two types. The circles might be an example of melati rinonce "Chain of melati flowers". The spirit of this pamor is Healer; attracts wealth, heals bad karma. The pamor along the edge if the blade I cannot identify.

It takes considerable skill for an empu to create a blade with to or more pamor. This s pretty well done on t east one side. The second picture of the blade showing the obverse side is not so nice IMHO.

I like it and would value it in my collection!

David

[semar]

hello Battara
the etching is recent done
the persoon from ho I buy this badik tel me sulawesi

and aboud the badik from orgin he come`s from Sulawesi and thats the same story the bugies travel and trade much and so and that way the badik get in
singapore , maleisie , Thailand ,Brunei Filipine and Java


regards semar

[Sajen]

I can't tell for sure something about the origin from your's and mine but when you have a look to Albert's book at page 27 there the badiks with similar elongated handles are described as Java origin but with "?".
And want to remember this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=badik
So I can understand the question from Alan. On the other hand, the examples in the book and from Ganjawulung have all a very similar handle form what let think that this form is typical for Java badiks.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Just as the keris originated in Jawa, the badik originated in Sulawesi.

No argument about this.

Yes, the Bugis people were traders, travellers, pirates, and that's how the badik spread into many other areas. No argument about that.

However, this particular style of badik differs in a number of significant particulars with the style of badik that we can definitely attribute to Sulawesi.

Mr. van Zonneveld seems to think that based upon his research, this style of badik might come from Jawa.

More than 40 years ago I was told by dealer in Jakarta that the badik I had bought from him was not from Sulawesi, but from Jawa. During that same visit to Jawa I met a fellow in Malang who was from Makassar, and I asked him if he recognised this badik as of Sulawesi origin, he told me he had never seen a badik of this style in Sulawesi.

Over the years since then I've run this question past a few other people whom I thought might know. None have confirmed Sulawesi as a point of origin for this style, most have given the opinion that it is a Javanese style of badik.

On the basis of such evidence, which is really only opinion, I'm not prepared to come out in favour of either Jawa or Sulawesi, or somewhere else entirely, rather I do think that this matter is still open to question.

Incidentally, in respect of the blade, I am virtually certain that close examination would reveal that this blade is a replacement, and possibly part of a shortened Javanese pedang.

[semar]

and how we can do that ??????????
when its posibel and i not wil damage the badik and way do you think that about the style of the pamor ????
and sajen you have some nice badiks

regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

By "close examination", I mean close examination by a person with the knowledge and experience to identify with a reasonable prospect of accuracy the probable source of this blade.

From a photograph it is not possible to assess the material used, it is not possible to assess blade geometry, it is not possible to inspect distal taper, it is not possible to carry out a microscopic appraisal of the blade surface, it is not possible to form a supportable opinion of the comparative age of blade and the dress.

Add to this the fact that very probably the only person who could carry out such an examination would be one who is a part of the Indonesian trade in these objects and who has adequate experience and knowledge in the area and what you have is a situation with no easily available resolution.

Almost everything that is required in order to form a supportable opinion is not possible from a photograph.

There is one thing that can be seen from the photo in this case, and that is the way that pamor has been retained at the expense of functionality. In any blade that uses a core, that core should ideally be exposed at the cutting edge or edges. In this badik the core loses exposure as it nears the point. This would seem to indicate that the blade was not forged to shape and lacks sufficient distal taper, but rather was produced from a piece of material that was originally wider and most likely thicker. A badik is intended to be used as a thrusting weapon, not a cutting weapon, which means that in construction the point must be prioritised, in the case of this blade, that has not happened.

During my lifetime I have had several of these badiks. I still have one. They have never had a typical badik blade fitted to them, but have had blades made from re-cycled keris or pedangs.

Every one of these badiks that I have had has been considerably longer than the type of badik we associate with Sulawesi. A blade of the size and form of the blade in this badik under discussion would need to be very thin and have considerable taper to provide the balance that we find in a typical badik; this balance in the typical badik is conducive to extremely fast instinctive use.

How many weapons of any form have we ever seen with a pamor like this that we can be certain have come from Sulawesi? Personally, I have seen none.

How many weapons with a pamor like this have we ever seen that we can be certain have come from Jawa-Madura? Speaking for myself, a very great number, most of which have been pedangs.

It is very common practice in Jawa to re-shape blades for use in other weapons. The two major centres where this is particularly prevalent are in Surabaya and Jogjakarta. There is a spinoff from Surabaya to Malang and Blitar, and dealers in these two towns have connections with Surabaya. Of course much of the product of Surabaya and Jogja winds up in Jakarta.

Last but not least we have the style, quality level, and motifs used in the dress of this badik. To my eye these appear to be closer to Javanese in origin than to anything I've seen from anywhere in Sulawesi.

There are varying levels of knowledge within the dealer network in Jawa, and very often a dealer himself will not have the necessary knowledge and experience to provide accurate information on everything he sells --- even if he wants to. Because of this we need to educate ourselves to a level that will permit the identification of tells that may give an indication that something is not quite what it may seem to be. There is no easy way that I know of to gain this education, and like all education, it costs money.

[Sajen]

Regarding the form of Badik handles: I just have had a look to the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" and have found two badiks with such elongated handles.

[asomotif]

Nice pictures Detlef,

The blades you show make clear what Alan wrote about the pamor and the core of the blade. notice the way the core follows the blades point on your examples.

Never the less Semar's badik is a nice one with very nice silverwork.

Best regards,
Willem

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

The blades you show make clear what Alan wrote about the pamor and the core of the blade. notice the way the core follows the blades point on your examples.

What Alan write about the pamor and the core seems very logical and he is most probable correct. My point have been the elongated handle form.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for posting that Detlef.

Yes, this book entry may be some evidence that we're looking at a true Sulawesi origin, but as you are probably aware, this book is not what we could call a particularly reliable source. I don't have it with me at the moment, I lent it to a friend to have a look at, I'd like to see what the text says about this form, if indeed it says anything.

However, its a step in the right direction.

[semar]

hello Sajen

I have this book to and I think its nice and give much info
ore we have some other book about bugis ????????????????????????
because some time i wonder what is a good book

[A. G. Maisey]

Semar, I'm not prepared to comment in detail in respect of that book, but I suggest you read the text and then form your own opinion.

We can usually get something from most books, and we can certainly gain something from this one. My comment in the previous post reflects the opinions that others have given me, and that just happen to coincide with my own.

[semar]

that not what i say I only say that I`m wonder of er is a good book that every body like and will say and agree that is the book that every thing what in the book is correct so I think that never will happen because the person that make the book try to tel what he know and try to shear with people that intresst in it and that it not more ore less for example for you its no nice badik ore no badik for some people its a nice badik so its from wich way you will look bud the and of the story its no Pedang any more that what we know and can see its now a Badik
sorry when I make mistake`s with my engels and i don`t want to insult nobody
some people like to have this i the his collection

regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Semar, I'll keep this as short and as simple as I can.

At no time have I said that this is not a nice badik.

I have in essence raised two matters in respect of this badik:-

1) is this style of badik of Sulawesi origin ? I did not say it is not from Sulawesi, I said I did not know where it was from but that there seems to be a possibility it is from Jawa.

2) there is a high probability that the blade has been made from a pedang blade.

I made one further comment and that referred to the reliability of a particular book. In respect of the book I have stated an opinion, no more, no less, and I am aware that this opinion is shared by a number of other people.

I have not said it is not a "nice" book.

I have not said it does not contain information.

I have said it falls short of being a reliable source of information. Many other books have exactly the same flaw, but that does not mean that they do not have some value. For example, Edward Frey's little keris book is full of flaws. From the first edition it took me fourteen A4 pages to list them all, most of which disappeared in his second edition. But I still consistently recommend this book to newcomers who want to read about keris. Why? Because in spite of the flaws it also has much in it of value.

In fact, in the matter of keris books I know of only one in which I cannot identify an error. Possibly there are things in it with which I do not agree, but there are no errors that I can find. That book is the one written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom.

When I write a comment I do try insofar as I am able to write plain English without obscure or implied meanings. It may assist in understanding what I write if the content of my writing is taken at face value.

[Sajen]

Hans,

you have given the badik for discussion, so let us dicuss it. Even when the blade is a cut down pedang blade, it is still very nice. This don't need to be a recent alteration. Like Alan write, normally follow the core until the blades point, have a look to your other badik from your collection or to the attached pictures from one of mine.
The other point have been the elongated handle, normally attributed to Java badiks. But maybe can Andi M. Irwan Zulfikar can enlighten us, he is coauthor of the book and as well a member of this forum.

Regards,

Detlef

[semar]

yes Detlef you wright

and for mister Maisey when you are in solo (one 26 Jan 9.30 is meeting from Tony Junus the will discus the book and there will be a movie about the keris
ad Balai Soejatmoko
JL slamet riyadi 284

[semar]

I think this Badik will be from java ???/
because the revolver hilt and the pamor ?????

[Sajen]

Agree, this form is from Java, thought.

[semar]

oke sajen but when I look to the next two
I think that are badik`s from celebes when I look to the type of pamor

regards semar

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by semar

oke sajen but when I look to the next two
I think that are badik`s from celebes when I look to the type of pamor

regards semar

Yes, agree but mainly because thegeneral shape. BTW, very nice ones!

[semar]

thank you sajen

I buy 11 badik and sewars voor a real good prize here in indonesie i will show them tomorrow when you like

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by semar

thank you sajen

I buy 11 badik and sewars voor a real good prize here in indonesie i will show them tomorrow when you like

Of course I like!

[semar]

hello Sajen this are the rest from the badik`s that i buy here I think these al from celebes

regards hans