My Flyssa Daggers

[chregu]

Hi
here is my Flyssa dagger (length 38cm) think it is an older piece.
the second, I have this Flyssa (42cm length) which is sufrace complete with shells. I do not know further details about it. any information are Welcome. what is special, such Flyssa have with this kind of decoration I already owned one.
greeting Chregu

[chregu]

Originally Posted by chregu

Hi
here is my Flyssa dagger (length 38cm) think it is an older piece.
the second, I have this Flyssa (42cm length) which is sufrace complete with shells. I do not know further details about it. any information are Welcome. what is special, such Flyssa have with this kind of decoration I already owned one.
greeting Chregu

here are the pictures

[Dom]

Originally Posted by chregu

Hi
here is my Flyssa dagger (length 38cm) think it is an older piece.
the second, I have this Flyssa (42cm length) which is sufrace complete with shells. I do not know further details about it. any information are Welcome. what is special, such Flyssa have with this kind of decoration I already owned one.
greeting Chregu

Hi Chregu
I like the three first, even if I prefer when they are cleaned

it's nice that they kept their leather sangles

the last, with shells, it's a amazing, but I guess;
- has been bought by some one, who went to Niger, or Mali, anyway, any African country,
and he had "Africanized" the flissa, according with fashion of these countries

à +

Dom

[chregu]

Thank you for your response Dom
I was just amazed, within two years a second shell-decorated Flyssa find.
look here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11836
greeting Chregu

[Indianajones]

Hi Chregu, dont know much about Flyssa's but do know that I sure like the nr.1 flyssa! Looks ancient and nice with that coppercovered handle, nice patine also on the scabbard (still nice dusty in corners). hmmm

You think that under that cover of the leather n shells of the 2nd Flyssa is still the original handle n wood scabbard as (like)ur nr.1 flyssa??

[Dom]

Originally Posted by chregu

Thank you for your response Dom
I was just amazed, within two years a second shell-decorated Flyssa find.
look here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11836
greeting Chregu

hi Chregu
if you studied what said "wikipedia" about "cowries"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowry
- a currency in Africa.
- The Ghanaian unit of currency known as the Ghanaian cedi was named after cowry shells.
- cowry shells, or copies of the shells, were used as Chinese currency.
- They were also used as means of exchange in India.
- The Classical Chinese character for money(貝) originated as a stylized drawing of a cowrie shell.
- The Ojibway aboriginal people in North America use cowry shells which are called sacred Miigis Shells or whiteshells in Midewiwin ceremonies,
and the Whiteshell Provincial Park in Manitoba, Canada is named after this type of shell.
- Cowry shells were among the devices used for divination by the Kaniyar Panicker astrologers of Kerala, India.
- Cowry shells are also worn as jewelry or otherwise used as ornaments or charms.
- They are viewed as symbols of womanhood, fertility, birth and wealth.
- The symbolism of the cowry shell is associated with the appearance of its underside:
the lengthwise opening makes the shell look like a vulva or an eye.
- Cowry shells are sometimes used in a way similar to dice
- in divination (cf. Ifá and the annual customs of Dahomey of Benin).
- On the Fiji Islands, a shell of the golden cowry or bulikula, Cypraea aurantium, was drilled at the ends and worn on a string around the neck by chieftains as a badge of rank.
- Large cowry shells such as that of Cypraea tigris have been used in Europe in the recent past as a frame over which sock heels were stretched for darning.

as you may see, their popularity is covering roughly all continents

some months ago, I found, loose close to our house, an handkerchief (clean) containing at least 15 or 18 "cowry",
but my wife, who believe on ... divination, without to informed me, has deposited some where (?), the handkerchief and the shells, too scare to keep it at home

à +

Dom

[Dom]

by the same opportunity, here my collection concerning, only "flissa"
all questions and comments are welcomed

à +

Dom

[mrwizard]

Impressive collection, Dom!

Do you consider the dagger in the lower right corner to be a flyssa.
I thought these things were mostly ceremonial (wedding nimcha).
btw. here is a photo of the only specimen i own (which looks more like a flyssa)... :-)

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Do you consider the dagger in the lower right corner to be a flyssa.
I thought these things were mostly ceremonial (wedding nimcha).
btw. here is a photo of the only specimen i own (which looks more like a flyssa)... :-)

Hi mrwizard
you noticed the "flyssa" in the lower right corner, and you are intrigued
- it's really a "souvenir dagger"
- "souvenir" dated 1876,
- purchased in "Fort National" (capitale for Great Kabylie, know in our days as Tizi-Ouzou)
- by a French military; Ansel Francois, soldier the 8th battalion of "Chasseur" (hunter)
I was myself "Sgt" in this precise battalion in the 60th
you may understand my particular attraction for this "Kabyle dagger"
nothing is invented, all is engraving on the scabbard

your flissa is just amazing, I never saw with a similar handle

all the best

à +

Dom

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by Dom

your flissa is just amazing, I never saw with a similar handle

Yes, isn't it? Looking at the workmanship our "flyssas" might be from
the same workshop

Best regards
Thilo

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Yes, isn't it? Looking at the workmanship our "flyssas" might be from the same workshop

Thilo,
Emanuel wrote an interesting chapter about flissa
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11477

and give some indications about who was manufacturing flissa; 1 tribe only
but better to read the post

à +

Dom

[Emanuel]

Hi there,

The strange handle can be seen on other flyssa/nimcha variants, and on some "Berber" sabres and shula/s'boula daggers as well.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1362

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2002

Camille Lacoste Desjardins writes in her article "Sabres Kabyles" that these small flyssa-like daggers date post-1950 or so. Algiers and much of the hinterland was taken by the French in 1830, and in 1850 the French imposed a ban on weapon manufacture. Kabylia surrendered a few years alter in 1857. By then the large flyssa were no longer being made, but part of the industry continued for the smaller types, sought after by the new French colonists. While they were very well made with good blades and quality decoration, quality gradually went down until they essentially became the "wedding nimchas" with blades cut from sheet metal. I'm not sure exactly where this happened. It likely started with the Kabyle flyssa, then might have had a bit of a back and forth with Morocco. The shula/s'boula was probably an intermediary step.
This is conjecture though...Dom you may have a better sense of where the different types were available.

Emanuel

[Congoblades]

Some more Flyssa decorated with cowry shells.
In the books "Jacob, Alain, 1974 - Armes blanches de l'Afrique noire" & "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960" are simular Flyssa shown, I don't have these books so I can't show them here, maby someone can add them here?
Like you can see in the picture, below the shells the scabbard and handle are already decorated.

Greets

[Congoblades]

An interesting site about Flyssa... in french,

http://blade.japet.com/flissa1.htm

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

An interesting site about Flyssa... in french,

http://blade.japet.com/flissa1.htm

And translated by the powers of the web in to English.......

Spiral

linky...

[Congoblades]

This is the one from "Jacob, Alain, 1974 - Armes blanches de l'Afrique noire", provided by Pieje,

[Congoblades]

Originally Posted by spiral

And translated by the powers of the web in to English.......

Spiral

linky...

LOL, so easy

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Some more Flyssa decorated with cowry shells.
In the books "Jacob, Alain, 1974 - Armes blanches de l'Afrique noire" & "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960" are simular Flyssa shown, I don't have these books so I can't show them here, maby someone can add them here?
Like you can see in the picture, below the shells the scabbard and handle are already decorated.

Greets

Hello,
I like this curved flyssa variant.

It’s interesting to see that the brass handle treatment is still there under the leather and shells. Were this mine I would remove them down to the original underneath since they are a later addition. Is the original carved wooden scabbard still there?
If Jacob's Senegalese attribution of the dagger is correct, it might be explained by France's use of Senegalese Tirailleurs in Algeria in the 1940s and 1960s to put down the Algerian rebellions. Senegalese veterans could have taken them as souvenirs.

Emanuel

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

If Jacob's Senegalese attribution of the dagger is correct, it might be explained by France's use of Senegalese Tirailleurs in Algeria in the 1940s and 1960s to put down the Algerian rebellions. Senegalese veterans could have taken them as souvenirs.

Emanuel ...
you have a large and fertile imagination
I'm agreed, that every thing, included the incredible, could be possible ...

- in 1940s the Senegalese Tirailleurs, present in Bir Hakeim - East Libya,
later have participated to the landing in Provence, and they went until Germania,
probability to carry with them a "souvenir" on long run (years)
- from 1954 to 62, they were in Algeria, as well as myself (61/62), but again,
I never saw during our operations a single "flissa" or "Algerian nimcha", main reason,
the population was too poor to hold some edged weapons like that, just kitchen knifes ...
otherwise sometimes, some very good automatic guns, what we have collected ... isn't it ... but never keep it

more realistic; THE TRADING ...
when it's not the smuggling (trabandists, in local language)
even in our days, as well as in past, since centuries, a very active and profitable business,
between; Algeria, Niger, Mali, and Mauritania (border with Senegal and Mali) guns, revolver's, machine-gun, RPJ, ammunitions, drugs, cigarettes ... etc ...
every weeks, in North Sahara (2001/04) I was buying Malb*ro RIM (Republic Islamic of Mauritania)
in very large quantity to supply American's camps (gas) in my charge, localized in Sahara
during the 6 years spent in Algeria; 1995/98 then 2001/04
I NEVER SAW A SINGLE FLISSA, long or short, even if nevertheless on weekly basic,
I went against all security measures, visit the Saharan city of Ouargla (outside of security perimeter) the shops of antiques,
I bought; ethnic jewelery, stone artifacts, never saw a dagger or sword ...
I have had talks with merchants (I speak Arabic), and asked from them edged weapons ... every time same answer; none ...
only thing, a day in Algiers, where I spent few nights, I found an old Tuareg arm dagger ("loï bo"), it's all what I found ... during all those years
the cat was skinny ... as we said here in France

my conclusion; these "flissa/nimcha" ornamented with crowie shells, are from the end of 19th,
transfered (caravan) from Sahara to African countries of Sub-Sahara,
then decorated by the merchants to comply with local fashion
this trading business, was been done before 1930, then the local situation became more critical
in 1930 the "pacification" of Sahara was accomplished, before, only Tuareg was the "masters", then,
their movements was restricted, deepest in South (as in our days ... )

less romantic, but may be more realistic, sorry to kill the poet who is residing in you

à +

Dom

[DaveA]

Here is a large (24 inches) curved flyssa with a hilt similar to the one posted by Dom. I had been thinking of this as a nimcha… It, along with the small jimbaya, are shown being worn by a "desert wallah" c. late 19th century.

Separately I will posted some other flyssas.

[DaveA]

Here are three other flyssas in my collection for comparison.

[kronckew]

mine:

the curved one doesn't have a nimcha grip, it more like a std. flyssa.

[David R]

Hiya guys, this conversation and particulary Doms contribution has piqued my interest, so I have a question. I saw these 2 and dismissed them as 20thC tourist pieces, but now I wonder? They are not in an auction so I think they are ok to post.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by DaveA

along with the small jimbaya, are shown being worn by a "desert wallah" c. late 19th century.

Hi Dave
I look for "Desert wallah", because I never listen about a tribe or a Bedu group with "wallah" as name
but in Arabic, it's the contraction of "wallah al-azim" (swearing using God name)
in this case "Desert wallah" could (?) mean "I swear, Desert"

second thing who interrogated me ... your picture for the "Desert wallah"
- the man is dressed as a Palestinian, the "egal" and the "abaya" are symptomatic
- but the two edged weapons, aren't from that country, but absolutely from Magreb !!!

I haven't an rational explanation,
excepted if we considered this picture as a "artistic view" not as ethnographic document
anyway ... strange, I hope that some Arabic Bro. will come to help us

regards

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys,

The desert wallah thing seems to be the work of some orientalist. Indeed it seems that the person is wearing a Palastinian traditional uniform and a shibriya (small knife at the bottom)

[David R]

The picture looks like an early 20thC studio photo, possibly an actor in "role" or a tourist souvenier. These often catch people out as sometimes they are quite convincing. Two of those below are of Mr. R. Burton explorer and orientalist, and Mr Grundy an early tourist, ie in 1855. The third is explained by its caption.
In the UK "wallah" or "waller" is a vernacular term for just about any male person regardless of race. Like much of our slang it is of Army origin, deriving from local languages in the Eastern part of the Empire. Other examples, "bundook" for rifle,"chitty" for a document, and "burkoo" derived from bhulgar for a meal of prepared grain....usualy porridge oats.
Sorry to digress, but I think the existance of early tourist photo's are increasingly relevant to us collectors, especialy when they become references.

[chregu]

Hi
It is absolutely interesting! thanks for all the good posts. I'm a bit tired at the moment that I do not have as much free time to get here to operate in the forum. But it will surely come again quieter times! smile.
beautiful Sunday evening

[DaveA]

Hi Dom,

"Desert Wallah" is a pejorative name for British high society men who would have an "adventurous" visit to British empire territorities in N. Africa. The term was used by local British administrators and more experienced travelers. In order to bolster their tales of daring-do, Desert Wallahs often brought back weapons, garb, and sometimes made photos such as this one in my collection. That is one reason well preserved edged weapons from the region can sometimes be found in family estate auctions. It also accounts for the odd ethnographic mixture of clothing and weapons in the picture!

David

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Dave
I look for "Desert wallah", because I never listen about a tribe or a Bedu group with "wallah" as name
but in Arabic, it's the contraction of "wallah al-azim" (swearing using God name)
in this case "Desert wallah" could (?) mean "I swear, Desert"

second thing who interrogated me ... your picture for the "Desert wallah"
- the man is dressed as a Palestinian, the "egal" and the "abaya" are symptomatic
- but the two edged weapons, aren't from that country, but absolutely from Magreb !!!

I haven't an rational explanation,
excepted if we considered this picture as a "artistic view" not as ethnographic document
anyway ... strange, I hope that some Arabic Bro. will come to help us

regards

à +

Dom

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David R

Hiya guys, this conversation and particulary Doms contribution has piqued my interest, so I have a question. I saw these 2 and dismissed them as 20thC tourist pieces, but now I wonder? They are not in an auction so I think they are ok to post.

how thick are the blades? that seems to be the main difference. the tourist 'wedding nimcha' ones, which apparently started late 19th c. tend to have thin flat blades (2mm-ish) and are more sharply curved than earlier ones with 4mm distal tapered blades (like mine above) and the engraving/inlays/scabbard carvings are not in traditional kabyle patterns. (see earlier post by emmanuel)

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by Dom

Emanuel ...
you have a large and fertile imagination...sorry to kill the poet who is residing in you

à +

Dom

Haha pas de probléme Dom, and certainly no poetry behind my post. I did think about older trade but I had no information about that. The only thing I knew for sure connecting Senegal with Algeria were the 1940s-1960s missions.
If there was extensive trade between Kabylia and the Sahel in the 19th century, that would have passed through Touareg caravans until the 1930s as you say. Some examples of flyssa blades chould have been found in Touareg or Hausa fashion no?

Anyway, we do see a good number of thse Senegalese cowry shell flyssas so they really must have like them :shurg:

Incidentally, have you seen this website: http://www.algerie-ancienne.com/livres/Revue/revue.htm ?

It has hundreds of scanned books and publications covering most of the history of the area. I haven't had time to read even 1% of it...

Best,
Emanuel